Street Riding Tips/Review/Notes

[ThinkFast]

See above...hope that clarifies from my perspective.

Agree with you, @Enchanter - my comments were made In the context of this thread, which is about street riding tips.

We need to know our audience. As you know, the street and track are vastly different.

And trackdays and racing are vastly different as well.

Or, as I like to say: The difference between trackdays and racing is like the difference between deer hunting and combat.

 

[self_moto]

I don't think that "good corner entry practices" mandate / require trailbraking on the street. Most motorcyclists want to ride their motorcycle like they drive their Camry. Just get from Point A to Point B without crashing

These things are not mutually exclusive. I'm huge proponent of covering brakes and trail braking - we're not talking about "heavy" braking, you can drag (slightly apply front brake) until you're happy with your speed and direction. I know CMSP really don't like teach people trail braking, until ARC, which I think it very bad approach - I bet only 1 from 1000 riders who finished basic course will get to ARC. But learn how to use your brake in the middle of the corner to correct you line is crucial for safety.

Even if we're comparing riding motorcycle like you drive a car - I bet you're applying brakes to adjust your speed and direction through the turn, especially if you're going through twisty roads.

 

[Holeshot]

1. Is the steering angle the same for a bike at maximum lean (hard parts dragging) in a 80mph turn as it is in a 40mph turn? I would think that steering (angle) is more related to the relationship of radius and speed than just lean angle.
2. Your initial post said that when trailbraking you're adding lean angle. In the clarification you add the disclaimer "as I've used the term". That's a big distinction that should be made. "This is the way it is" is different from "This is the way I do it".
3. I don't think that "good corner entry practices" mandate / require trailbraking on the street. Most motorcyclists want to ride their motorcycle like they drive their Camry. Just get from Point A to Point B without crashing. I've never heard 'take it to the track' on the many car forums I'm on.
4. See #3 & 4. We need to know our audience. As you know, the street and track are vastly different. And trackdays and racing are vastly different as well. The crossover(s) are nuances. "Increased brakes" then "giving away brakes" is a terminology nightmare (my opinion). Use descriptors that are linked. Like "increased brakes and decreased brakes" in the same paragraph, discussion, sentance. I get that certain groups of riders use colloquialisms for things, but we're talking to many varied groups people on BARF and more common terms would be helpful and less confusing for the masses. It's similar to the term "exit apex" that I've heard a well known coach use when describing the location of the end of the turn and beginning of the straight. I may not have described that well. Basically the cone at the exit of the turn that many trackday providers put out there as an aiming point. As for technique over terminology, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the race instructor is using the same terminology for each student and it's track focused. If the student doesn't understand the instructor (terminology), they cannot progress to technique.
5. If you are saying that when trailbraking, the release of the brake lever is a physical location that the rider should know ahead of time, I don't think that is applicable to street riding.

1. Steering angle is going to set the radius. Where did "lean angle = steering angle" come from? Talking to riders who didn't understand that motorcycle steering benefits from lean angle. I *think* the idea for keeping less lean angle into the bike may have come from the mid 2000's Champ school. Not sure totally, but that's where I've heard it most.

2. I've never heard the term "trail braking" as anything but, braking and adding lean angle, which is to say; braking and turning. That's the way it is.

3. The word "mandate/ require" hasn't been used by myself. Feel free to do all your braking in a straight line, everywhere. I'll pass on that. Trail braking maintains front contact patch and allows a rider to turn earlier than straight up/ down braking. #2. Trail braking also reduces the radius of the corner while a rider is bleeding off speed as they're adding lean angle.

4. You're adding context, again, that wasn't a part of the conversation. You must believe people ride bikes vastly different on the street at a moderate pace than the track and, that riders on the street do not ride at brisk paces. Use your terminology all you like to teach street riders not to use advanced techniques. As I said previously, there are different levels of riding/ instruction. As riders get more advanced, they focus on advanced techniques and either alter terminology based teaching or focus on techniques more specific to their needs (weaknesses). The "schools" tend to focus more on the terminology and the one-size-fits-all instruction. That's probably why terminology is pushed so hard. Probably best to agree that learning how to ride a bike over the Internet VS working with someone in person are light years apart.

4(a). I've had several instructors over the years. There are 2 I've had that are some of the best in the country. Pridmore and Zemke. Each have their own nuances, but they're not using terminology to convey a skill. They're going to pick up specific things; hand position, foot position, movement across the bike, downshifting tricks, etc...and give a rider the techniques and wherewithal to analyze their own riding later. When I came back to racing in 2018 from a 3 year break, JZ helped me for the next two years. I'd won some race and had lots of podiums, but no championships, top 10 plates, etc. yet. With a few small changes JZ made in my riding, We went from winning a race here or there to winning 26 races in a season and 4 championships/ top 10 plate, etc. that lasted till I hit the ground in 2023 and was out for the year. My point is simple: we worked on specific skills/ techniques that were what I needed to kick up to the very top step. This is no different for riders at any stage of learning: fix what's going to help them specifically and personally and don't confuse them with skills they have already conquered, even if they don't know the correct terminology, etc. IMO, and IME, of course. Not all students/ riders are the same.

5. If a rider doesn't know where they're going to release the brake lever (even roughly), then why are the applying the brake at any certain point? The street and track are pretty much the same wrt technique and it doesn't take knowing a road to ride said road. New riders may struggle to know where to brake to and when to accelerate, etc. But, as riders get more experience, they learn how to adjust braking, etc. When I go to the brakes, I know where I want to brake to. Most of this is sub conscious from doing it so long. It's got the be the same with you.

6. techniques that work on the track work on the street. The modifications to the street for safety are less speed/ lean angle IMO. I don't think anyone I know (in my circles) is changing their riding dramatically for the street. Maybe a different bike type (HD vs sport bike) and even then, we're ripping pretty good on HD's in the canyons and using almost all the same techniques.

 

[Enchanter]

^^^ On the street, motorcycle or car, I rarely brake after turn-in.

On the street I’ll only brake after turn-in in those spicy moments when I’m intent and focused on increasing the distance between me and the vehicle behind, or reducing the distance to the vehicle in front. Read into that how you must.

 

[Enchanter]

1. Steering angle is going to set the radius. Where did "lean angle = steering angle" come from?

It is exactly what you typed in post 15 of this thread. Terminology...oh wait, that's not important is it.

"you must believe" ?!?!?! Really? Take a look in the mirror. You clearly believe that the content you post is correct, and there isn't another way.

I've spent the last 36 years trying to help street riders. A conservative number wold be 16,000 students. I've attended numerous classes to improve my skills as a rider, as a teacher (of multiple topics), and focused training on how to effectively observe and train motorcyclists. You attempting to school me on the best way to train someone is, fucking hilarious.

Your delivery when responding to being challenged leaves a lot to be desired.

You know what...I'm out.

 

[Das MotorRad]

^^^ On the street, motorcycle or car, I rarely brake after turn-in.

On the street I’ll only brake after turn-in in those spicy moments when I’m intent and focused on increasing the distance between me and the vehicle behind, or reducing the distance to the vehicle in front. Read into that how you must.

I enjoy your input and sharing of experiences teaching people how to ride, so thank you

I don't always apply front brake after turn in, but I am often still slowing down using engine-braking as I approach the apex. Separating the two ideas of "slowing the bike down" versus "applying brake pressure" is useful, in my opinion. Especially when trying to tease out differences between riding attitudes.

Would I rather encounter a patch of gravel while applying front brake pressure on a blind corner? Or would I rather be neutral / slightly on the gas? Which method provides more options? I prefer being neutral on the gas, because if you are neither accelerating nor decelerating you can float over pretty much anything.

Keep the inverted pendulum balanced

 

[Holeshot]

It's not worth getting upset over, T. We're a bit different in our (moto riding) AO's and beliefs. This should come as no surprise, given past riding conversations. There was a distinction early on in the differences in riders where I posted to you:

Your students/ locations are at a different level than I'm used to, IIRC. I've never instructed outside a race track.

That was deferential to the difference in environment and rider goal. No harm meant to you.

 

[Enchanter]

Attempting to change this to a discussion of *beliefs* is a shitty tactic. Yes, *tactic*, I believe you know what you are doing. It's dismissive and disrespectful.

 

[Holeshot]

"Belief" is a softening word. A word of compromise cause I'm not trying to be adversarial. In fact, your response to me was just that; adversarial and then, attempting to define the battlefield as the street; the sole riding environment. It was pretty inflammatory at the outset. I resisted responding in-kind. I've pointed out that it appears (again softening word) we're speaking of two different environments with some overlap.

I've also proposed several times before, how we can try each other's techniques out. You've taught tons more riders than I've even seen. But, the environments and goals are different. You seem to ignore that once past introductory training, riders seek to increase skills in off-street environments and perfect their own riding technique. Techniques for motorcycle base operation are refined and new techniques are learned for higher performance riding. The statement you're upset abut (belief) is much better than the comment it replaces. As you know, when I was trying to get my GF to take the introductory riding course, you were the one person I wanted teaching her, at your course. That's the amount of trust I have in you.

if you want me to be strictly literal, let me know. I don't think it's a good idea though, FWIW.

 

[Luca92]

In my efforts to unlock the illustrious PMs feature (and I guess also review some stuff I've learned) I'll be posting notes here as I progress through different moto books and content. Aiming to do one post per day!
Starting with Lee Park's Total Control 2nd Ed...

#1: Riding a motorcycle is an exercise in traction management. Traction available (TA) must always be greater than or equal to traction required (TR).
Methods to manage TA through Tires:

- Tire pressure. This is a trade-off between traction and longevity of the tire. Lower than stock tire pressure may give you a larger contact patch and thus more traction, however less longevity. Vice versa for higher. As a general rule, follow the manufacturer's guidelines.​

- Temperature/Compound. More important with race tires, but the physics are universal: higher temperatures = more compliant rubber and thus greater traction, at the risk of exceeding its design temperature and degradation. Conversely, cold tires conform less to the road surface and will give you less traction.​

- Age. Tires are perishable, and subject to dry rot/cracking/failing if left out for too long.​

- Size/Profile. It's important to verify this, as the wrong size/profile can significant affect the location of the contact patch along your tire at max lean. In some cases, you may make it impossible for yourself/significantly lowering the size of your contact patch if you have the wrong tires for the job.​

​

#2: How do you read your tire's sidewall?!
DOT XE K9 A171 3224
"DOT" - road-legal certification
"XE" - manufacturer plant and code
"K9" - tire size code
"A171" - brand code and characteristics
"3224" - first 2 digits is the week tire was made, last 2 digits is the year. So in this example, the tire was made in the 32nd week of 2024 (Aug 5-11).

Summary: Having the right tires and suspension are part of the foundation to CYA and ensure a functioning motorcycle.

Great post! You're breaking down the fundamentals really clearly—especially the connection between tire pressure, compound, and traction. Highlighting how different temperatures affect grip is super useful, particularly for newer riders who might overlook those variables. Looking forward to your next entry from the book—this kind of structured info is gold for anyone wanting to improve their riding technique and safety!

 

[jeremiahmoto]

#10: With upshifting, the goal is to be as efficient as possible (minimize time spent in the 'process' of shifting). When a sudden change in speed is required, you want to be able to accelerate immediately. One way to think about it is to mimic the "quick-shifter" feature in race bikes where the ignition is cut for a very short period of time (~50ms), the transmission is then unloaded and the next higher gear is selected.

Basic upshifting technique mentioned in the book:
1. Make sure the engine is under full load (full throttle/super-high rpm usually?).
2. Preload the shift lever by pulling your foot up with just slightly less force than that needed for the next gear.
3. Quickly roll off throttle (10-20% twisting range) then back up to full throttle.

This "wrist-flick" with the preloaded lever should have the next gear snicked in while the transmission is temporarily unloaded.

Full throttle speed-shifting: no clutch necessary.

#11: Downshifting, the goal is to match the engine speed with the wheel speed. Too low engine speed = rear wheel hopping and struggling to regain traction = bad!

Downshifting technique mentioned in the book:
1. Roll off throttle and apply front brake.
2. Maintaining even front brake pressure, turn or "blip" the throttle about 50% of twisting travel while simultaneously pulling clutch lever in and quickly engage the lower gear.

When you re-engage the clutch by bringing the lever out, the new lower gear ratio desires higher rpm to blend engine speed to the rear-wheel speed. I'm still working on fully understanding how engine gearing works so this is a bit of an "I believe button" moment, I get the practice of it but the theory is still a little wonky to understand with my monkey brain.

 

[zanshin]

Some related thoughts in a semi-humorous format.

I was doing a BDR on my GS a while back, on fresh TKC 80s (great 50/50 dual sport tire) . The ride leader was on worn 90/10 street tires. I was riding my little heart out on two track when he left me in the literal dust like I was standing still. Moral of the story: it's not the tires/equipment, it's the talent and skill.

That same dirt-going GS has seen tire pressures in the 20-40 psi range depending on conditions, etc. Sometimes paved twisties needed to be ridden at off-road tire pressures, and all was well. Moral of the story: when speeds are moderate, tires can handle a very wide range of pressures for a limited time. If you're 10 psi low, keep calm.. you're not going to die.

Some years back I did an enduro clinic with a top enduro pro. We were on the trail, when circumstances called for more traction. He pushed on my tires with the heel of his palm, deflating until they had the correct give. I was running too much pressure. What was the psi? Who knows. Moral of the story: it's not the absolute number that matters, but how a given tire responds.

Being blessed (and cursed) with a large stable of bikes, I switch from vintage to supermoto to cruiser to enduro, and I like to romp in the twisties on all of them. The variation in tires, suspension, ground clearance, couldn't be more varied. They all do fine. There have been amusing passes of timid modern machinery on the outside of corners by old 60 hp Harleys. Moral of the story: there's no need to obsess over equipment. Ride all the things.

And lastly, a note about riding quickly in the sand-strewn local twisties, because sometimes our roads are a mess, and there are dirt roads besides.

The more a tire is loaded, the more grip it has. Front grip is much more important than rear grip, as front slides on a bike are much trickier to manage than rear slides. Thus, when cornering vigorously (especially in variable conditions), it behooves one to ensure that the front is well loaded. (Unless one is drifting, but that's an advanced kettle of fish)

If you roll off the throttle, that's a good start -- some weight transfer to the front. If you brake, there's much more weight transer to the front. However, if you use a bunch of front brake while cornering, you're using a good chunk of the "traction pie" for deceleration that you might want to have available purely for cornering.

So if I am cranking along at an illegal pace Nick Ienatch would frown at, I tip into the corner on front and rear brakes, and as the lean angle increases and the speed decreases and stabilizes, release all of the front brake until only the rear is trailing. Thus accomplishes the following:

- Maintains gentle deceleration so the front is pressed into the ground, while leaving 100% of the front traction pie for cornering
- Keeps the suspension slightly squatted and settled. (This is super helpful. The rear brake is a godsend in the dirt for all it does, but pavement peepers may not even realize the benefits. Sometimes in the dirt you're on the gas while dragging a little rear brake.. it's a very useful tool)
- Allows for instantaneous application of additional slow-down and a tightening of the line if something nasty comes into view as you override your sight lines (guilty as charged)

This is where modern electronics are helpful. With modern ABS, one can get away with being shall we say imprecise with the rear brake without highsiding yourself off the road. But care should be taken in sport-type modes that may turn off rear ABS. Only 2 of my 12 bikes have ABS, so I'm necessarily surgical with the rear.

I've had the good fortune to do dirt rally and ice rally training (cars), and the thing you realize in the first 5 minutes is that:
- weight transfer is the most important thing you're controlling
- the (largely front) brake is the most important tool for controlling weight transfer
- 80% of rally is in the feet. The steering wheel is secondary

And that in turn feeds into a better understanding of weight transfer / tire loading when motorcycling. I'm very conscious about pressing the front into the ground when carrying speed into a corner and/or overriding sight lines and/or expecting sand or rocks or potholes or whatever, with the rear brake trailing and ready to shed more speed, with the suspension settled. Minimal reaction time penalty, minimal upset to the suspension if I need more brake as the corner develops and hazards sail into view. Front 100% dedicated to cornering, with some bonus loading.

And again, this is purely for rapid traversal of challenging twisties. Not meant for track application with its sanitized safe space early apex hanging off like a monkey bidness.

Hopefully this will help some youngins.