Sunday- Near "Bike-vs-Bike" Head-On! (Ducati on Gazos Cr 8/09) - Learning experience?

[Gary J]

Like pKx, I can also attest to his maturity- a fact that should be quite obvious to everyone .....

Thanks for sharing your input Raza. Based on the feedback from you, and the ride leader (pKx) that also knows the Red Ducati pilot, I have no doubt that he is a respected individual, and perceived (in most instances) as a "mature" individual. That's great.

However if one is limited to only knowing him by the documented events that occurred Sunday on Gazos Creek road, directly as a result of decisions and actions purely under the control of the Red Ducati rider, I'm sure you'll agree that the "maturity" rating score would be (is) very low.

Not sure if some factors (family/work issues, health, other?) may have been involved that day that impaired his normal decision-making character that you've apparently previously observed? Guess only the Red Ducati rider can explain his behavior that day.

I have known the rider for many years, way before I started riding. He has served, basically, as my moto-mentor since started riding last year.

Again I can only assume that the Red Ducati Rider's actions of Sunday was not reflective of the type of riding behavior that he traditionally exhibited to you during his mentoring time in the years past. Certainly you will acknowledge that his blind passing decision of the SUV, that led to a near head-on with another motorcyclist, was not a good lead-by-example mentoring act?

As you confirmed Raza, it appears Sunday's events will carry away a strong learning experience for all those present and involved; and perhaps others that have followed this thread on the forum. This kind of positive outcome, a full and speedy recovery for the Red Ducati Rider, and an altering of future riding behavior, is the best we can ask for going forward.

 

[Coffae]

As Gary says, this recount is stranger than fiction:
First of series--Duc rider makes huge mistake. It is a very experienced and talented rider who is on the receiving end of this mistake and using ALL of his skills and then some, manages to miss a head on collision. <Miracle 1>. Gary decides it is important enough to "educate" the rider. <Epic Decision 2>. Rider crashes about one mile down the road. <Colossal Error 3>. Lead Group Rider joins thread and is a member of the forum. <Coincidence 4>. Another group member argues that the Duc rider is his mentor and very experienced. <Simply Amazing 5>.

Folks, as remarkable as this chain of events is--take stock in your own riding. Doc Wong mentions that for every crash, you get 100 mistakes. This means that the Duc rider made 99 mistakes that didn't result in a crash, before he met fate. If someone (inside or external to your head) is telling you to slow down--do it!

Gary--thank you for being there as much more than a sanity check.

 

[corpsedub]

I have known the rider for many years, way before I started riding. He has served, basically, as my moto-mentor since started riding last year. I was hesitant to get a motorcycle, but the knowledge of having someone like him to help guide me definitely made me feel much more at ease. Because of his experience and knowledge, I believe that I have learned so much more than I would have any other way. In the close to 20K miles on both street and track that we've ridden together, I sincerely feel that the events of yesterday do not represent the kind of rider and person that he really is. He is completely and absolutely a man of integrity and will be the first to admit his mistakes, as he clearly demonstrated yesterday.


-Raza

throw me in the same camp as Raza. He has also been a very valuable teacher to me. i was not on this particular ride so i cannot comment on his actions, but as a person he gets nothing but respect from me. this forum as a whole might see him in a different light due to this thread and i can accept that.

 

[planegray]

"Should" is the operative word here. In this situation, it was a crap-shoot between what we want to happen, what we hope to happen, what should have happened.

as evidenced by the results of this chain of events

 

[2strokeYardSale]

Hope he has a speedy recovery, I'm kind of curious to see what his side of the encounters play out to be. (and hopefully he has some frame sliders installed on his bike so its not too badly damaged).

Hope he has a lengthy recovery and is off bikes for a good, long time. Hopefully his bike is so badly damaged he can't ride it and endanger any more people.

blah blah mistake blah blah mistake

Blowing a turn and crossing into the other lane is a mistake. Using the oncoming lane to pass a car is a conscious decision. Doing that around a blind turn shows horrible judgement.

Gary, less lecturing, more knives through sidewalls.

 

[Coffae]

throw me in the same camp as Raza. He has also been a very valuable teacher to me. i was not on this particular ride so i cannot comment on his actions, but as a person he gets nothing but respect from me. this forum as a whole might see him in a different light due to this thread and i can accept that.

Not all teachers are well rounded. Teaching you to go fast is one thing. Teaching you the mechanics of your bike another; and teaching you to make it home every time is yet another.

If someone less skillful than Gary was on the other side of that blind turn, there would have been a collision. Would you still think that your friend is a good rider? That the accident didn't occur (the first time) does not make the mistake any less catastrophic.

What your friend has taught has value--but only if you temper it by keeping the testesterone in check and incorporate safer riding techniques by the sound of it.

 

[Climber]

He's my take on it:

From the accounts of others who ride with him, the Duc rider is normally a good experienced rider who is a stand-up guy.

As facts prove, he had two bad incidents in one day.

My take on it is that he shouldn't have been riding that day because it was clearly an off day for him, for whatever reason whether it's lack of sleep, lack of focus or some other reason.

There is a lesson here, and that is to not go for that ride when your head isn't in the game. We all have those days where we just can't maintain our focus during a ride and those are the days that we should just say no to riding because it isn't worth the risk to us and others. I have bailed on group rides when I wake up and just feel like I can't maintain 100% focus 100% of the time. This isn't a video game and when you make a mistake the consequences can be severe, so I urge all riders to have the maturity to properly assess themselves before they ride and honestly decide whether or not you should ride that day.

My

 

[bpowa]

Was the red duc rider leading the group? IT seems he should if he is such a mentor. For whats its worth I would like to hear the Red duc guys point of view and what he was thinking.

I mean all we know is he crashed on a crest of a hill.. Is it the blind crest? Anything on the road?

 

[intortus]

so I urge all riders to have the maturity to properly assess themselves before they ride and honestly decide whether or not you should ride that day.

Heh heh heh.

 

[Carlo]

Gary as a racer you know that you have to brush off "moments" and keep to the task at hand, unfortunately his involved you and a stinking suv. I'm very surprised he stopped and listened to you, must be a rook. Most people don't learn till they hit something hard. Be safe and ride well. cheers alx

I'm sure that his ablility to actually catch up to the Ducati rider had a lot to do with the guy's willingness to listen to the message.

 

[Carlo]

It sounds like he might have 15 years worth of mileage rather than 15 years of experience.

Whatever happened to owns9? He has many years of experience too, but that didn't stop him from crashing badly on 9. Twice.

 

[Carlo]

I was also part of the group the original poster encountered on Gazos Creek Rd.

Like pKx, I can also attest to his maturity- a fact that should be quite obvious to everyone since he was willing to admit when he was in the wrong and apologize. Like others have said, if the confrontation was with any less mature a person, the conversation could have been much different.



-Raza

That's good. But you're forgetting one thing; he didn't slow down.
An apology is meaningless without an effort to correct the bad behavior that necessitated the apology.

 

[fast4d]

Hope he has a lengthy recovery and is off bikes for a good, long time. Hopefully his bike is so badly damaged he can't ride it and endanger any more people..

you've got my vote.


mentor? did he teach you to NOT respect other people's lives?

 

[HRCrider]

Man sounds like a scary moment. I am usually riding with Gary at this time and who knows, he may have plowed right into me. But the main man upstairs told me to go fishing that weekend and I wasen't riding. Glad all are ok and I din't have to come home and read a RIP thread about my best riding buddy. But it sounds like this guy is not to experienced at all?

 

[9rPilot]

After reading Gary's write-up and the references from folks that know Red Duc Rider (RDR), I can't help but think that RDR must have been riding distracted that day. I'll take that as a "lesson learned" for myself. I know I've gone riding with stuff on my mind before and found myself out of the groove and a bit off on judgement. Couple that with the "must keep up" mindset of a spirited group ride and bad things can happen (obviously). I have to remind myself that this sport is extremely unforgiving and that one bad decision invalidates a thousand good decisions. I think we all could use this as a reference point to self check our focus and mindframe when riding and have the self discipline to STFD and/or take a break until we're back at full capability.

Gary - Glad this was only a near miss for you
RDR - Hope you have a full and quick recovery...

 

[Carlo]

After reading Gary's write-up and the references from folks that know Red Duc Rider (RDR), I can't help but think that RDR must have been riding distracted that day. I'll take that as a "lesson learned" for myself. I know I've gone riding with stuff on my mind before and found myself out of the groove and a bit off on judgement. Couple that with the "must keep up" mindset of a spirited group ride and bad things can happen (obviously). I have to remind myself that this sport is extremely unforgiving and that one bad decision invalidates a thousand good decisions. I think we all could use this as a reference point to self check our focus and mindframe when riding and have the self discipline to STFD and/or take a break until we're back at full capability.

Gary - Glad this was only a near miss for you
RDR - Hope you have a full and quick recovery...

All this talk about riding distracted is irrelevant. If you're riding near the limit, of course you shouldn't be doing it while distracted. But the issue isn't whether RDR was distracted, it's that he chose to pass the SUV someplace where he shouldn't have.
And an even deeper issue is that you shouldn't be riding near the limit on a public road, especially a one and a half lane public road. If he'd been riding slower, and not making stupid choices, his possible state of mind wouldn't have been an issue, and you can't blame his state of mind for the way he chose to ride.

 

[DiScoTeknix]

Gary J, I have a brick to give you. I shat it when I came around the corner and saw you facing sideways, making a u-turn.

Was the red duc rider leading the group? IT seems he should if he is such a mentor. For whats its worth I would like to hear the Red duc guys point of view and what he was thinking.

I mean all we know is he crashed on a crest of a hill.. Is it the blind crest? Anything on the road?

The crest was completely blind and went straight into a downhill, right hand, decreasing radius turn. It's a bit tricky and comes at you fast. Combine this with the adrenaline from being yelled at by another rider moments before, and the realization after you come over the crest that you're headed straight for the embankment, increases the chances of the situation ending unfortunately.

Also, wishing death and pain onto others for their mistakes and choices is not considering respecting the lives of others...

 

[9rPilot]

All this talk about riding distracted is irrelevant. If you're riding near the limit, of course you shouldn't be doing it while distracted. But the issue isn't whether RDR was distracted, it's that he chose to pass the SUV someplace where he shouldn't have.
And an even deeper issue is that you shouldn't be riding near the limit on a public road, especially a one and a half lane public road. If he'd been riding slower, and not making stupid choices, his possible state of mind wouldn't have been an issue, and you can't blame his state of mind for the way he chose to ride.

The purpose of my post was that we should all use this as a reality check to think about our focus and mindset when riding, not to let RDR off the hook for his bad decisions. The street is not a racetrack and RDR shouldn't have been riding it like it was. I think RDR made a series of bad decisions, possibly exacerbated by a distracted mindset or lack of focus, and ultimately crashed. He ownes the bad decisions and the result.

When I read any crash (or near miss) account, I always do a quick "What I can learn from this?" analysis. In this case, the lessons learned for me are:
1 - Ride your own ride, don't get sucked into the "must keep up" mindset of group rides
2 - be aware of your focus and mindset and have the self discipline to STFD or stop if you're riding distracted or pre-occupied
3 - every decision you make when riding is critical, one bad decision can kill you (and possibly others), even if you've made a lifetime of good decisions to date...
4 - (edit) Never initiate a pass unless you have a clear sight line of the area needed to pass and oncoming traffic

 

[Cygnus]

my initial reaction to this was "Gary, don't ever talk to me, you're bad luck."

Had this not been Gary J, the events, and this thread, would be much different. I am glad the riders did not collide. I am glad Gary J followed and talked to the RDR. I am sorry the RDR crashed later, and I look forward to hearing his side of the story.

But, before everyone starts chasing down every bozo that is 2" over the DY, consider for a moment, how this would play out if:
Gary J (biker #1) had decided not to turn around and try to talk to RDR (e.g., would we have Gary J saying "OMG, that's the same bike that nearly ran me into a ditch. I didn't think it was worth chasing him down over.")
Gary J (or biker #1) had crashed trying to chase down the Ducati.
Biker #1 was not Gary J (e.g., G-Force had posted the same thread/events).

I do not look forward to any similar threads with slightly different details. Riders, please realize that there might be another vehicle coming, and there is no 'reset' button. Posters, please remember that you have gambled a time or two, but there was just no one there to record the win/lose/draw.

 

[planegray]

The purpose of my post was that we should all use this as a reality check to think about our focus and mindset when riding, not to let RDR off the hook for his bad decisions. The street is not a racetrack and RDR shouldn't have been riding it like it was. I think RDR made a series of bad decisions, possibly exacerbated by a distracted mindset or lack of focus, and ultimately crashed. He ownes the bad decisions and the result.

When I read any crash (or near miss) account, I always do a quick "What I can learn from this?" analysis. In this case, the lessons learned for me are:
1 - Ride your own ride, don't get sucked into the "must keep up" mindset of group rides
2 - be aware of your focus and mindset and have the self discipline to STFD or stop if you're riding distracted or pre-occupied
3 - every decision you make when riding is critical, one bad decision can kill you (and possibly others), even if you've made a lifetime of good decisions to date...
4 - (edit) Never initiate a pass unless you have a clear sight line of the area needed to pass and oncoming traffic

I agree that we all should read Gary's post (and others like it) with the intent to learn. I know I have learned much from reading on barf, and modified my riding habits to insure better odds for my safe return home.

No need to argue with folks about this, some get it, and some don't....as confucious said "when the student is ready, the teacher will appear" (same thing Enchanter also said, a few posts back )