Sunday- Near "Bike-vs-Bike" Head-On! (Ducati on Gazos Cr 8/09) - Learning experience?

[Gary J]

I don't know if I would have chased the rider down to talk with him because doing so would have added risk. It may not have been too risky for the OP, but it did raise the risk(s) of those involved.

To each their own Enchanter, and I certainly respect your right to your opinion. It should be recognized however, that unless one is actually there, and lives through a particular experience (especially a high risk of injury/death one), even the best intention “what I would’ve done in that case” perspectives can only be, at best, Monday morning quarterbacking. Please recognize this isn't the "Crash Analysis" area of the BARF forum either.

In my opinion Enchanter, there’s times where staying on the sidelines, and just letting the game go on, just isn’t the right thing to do in life. Sometimes just doing the right thing, and accepting there may be some personal consequences associated with it, is what it takes. Too many shrinking violets in this world these days.

The gravity of the event that unfolded right in front of me on Gazos Creek on Sunday, combined with referencing a deep history of past real world experiences in motorcycling, and intimate knowledge of that road, made the decisions taken to seek out a post-event debrief with the Red Ducati Rider .... the right choice. Have no regrets, and would do the same again in a heartbeat; if all the circumstances were identical.

Who knows, perhaps the pace at which the Red Ducati Rider was traveling when he (unfortunately) crashed a mile up the road was actually slower than the speed he would have been traveling had we not had our “Come to Jesus” discussion? Perhaps the extent of his injuries (or worse) would have been even more severe if he’d continued on at full-tilt pace, as he was at the time I'd observed him leading up to us stopping and talking?

Who knows, maybe by not blowing off this entire event and just letting it go, and keeping it silent, some other rider in that group, or rider now reading this thread, may now be kept from being involved in a similar incident in the future?

We’ll never know for sure. I guess it depends upon a person’s viewpoint of the glass being “half-full”, or “half-empty” when looking at things.

 

[TerryNugwin]

Glad no one got got seriously injured in this matter. Good thing u got skillz Gary.

 

[Gary J]

Glad no one got got seriously injured in this matte.

Unfortunately Terry the word I've gotten is that the initial medical issues for the Red Ducati Rider were more severe than just a broken bone ..... as has been the impression here in this thread.

Some internal head trauma (which is apparently improving quickly ) that has him awaiting release from ICU at this time.

Hoping for continued good news reports of improved medical condition of RDR (name?).

 

[tzrider]

The gravity of the event that unfolded right in front of me on Gazos Creek on Sunday, combined with referencing a deep history of past real world experiences in motorcycling, and intimate knowledge of that road, made the decisions taken to seek out a post-event debrief with the Red Ducati Rider .... the right choice. Have no regrets, and would do the same again in a heartbeat; if all the circumstances were identical.

I've been there too. Three years ago (almost to the day), I documented an encounter with a car on Calaveras Road. It was a near head-on, I got pissed, turned around, gave chase and yelled at the driver. My interaction wasn't cordial; we didn't shake hands. The driver slowed way down for as far as I could see him, but of course I have no way of knowing if the incident made a lasting difference. I do know that I felt better for giving him a piece of my mind.

There are probably countless ways in which my episode could have gone wrong, but it didn't. In the end, we're humans, both behind the wheel and the bars. We're going to have interactions good and bad. We have to decide whether and how to work out differences.

After the fact, these stories have a way of making it seem that Gary (or I) threw caution to the wind and gave chase without regard for personal safety or that of others. It really wasn't the case in my incident and I doubt it was in Gary's.

 

[Burning1]

I wonder if the Duc rider's near miss or his chat with Gary threw him off his game. I know that there have been times after a pucker moment where I have scared myself so badly that I try to slow down, but if my rhythm is off or I am so worried about not crashing or the stupid thing I just did that I don't focus on technique, I actually ride worse and more dangerously until I am able to refocus. I hope the Duc rider will join the thread when he gets out of the hospital. I don't think we'll be too hard on him. I'm sure everyone has felt like an asshole or a tool on their bike at least once.

Perhaps, but that isn't an excuse. I've always been able to tell when I'm fatigued or distracted, and I'm not riding right. I know from experience that when I'm not at my best I'm riding while impaired, and need to take every step necessary to reduce my risk.

 

[Enchanter]

To each their own Enchanter, and I certainly respect your right to your opinion. It should be recognized however, that unless one is actually there, and lives through a particular experience (especially a high risk of injury/death one), even the best intention “what I would’ve done in that case” perspectives can only be, at best, Monday morning quarterbacking. Please recognize this isn't the "Crash Analysis" area of the BARF forum either.

You are correct. I wasn't there that day. I have had the misfortune of being in similar situations. I've chosen to continue on in some, and I've chosen to interact with the other person in others.

I'm sorry you feel that I was questioning your actions. That wasn't my intent. I was merely sharing my thoughts.

I'm not sure how/what the Crash Analysis Forum has to do with any of this.

In my opinion Enchanter, there’s times where staying on the sidelines, and just letting the game go on, just isn’t the right thing to do in life. Sometimes just doing the right thing, and accepting there may be some personal consequences associated with it, is what it takes. Too many shrinking violets in this world these days.

I agree. I rarely stand on the sidelines in my day to day life. I know that the actions I take may turn out 'right' or wrong, or maybe neither. You feel that you did the 'right thing'. This simple fact indicates that it was in fact the right thing for you. Choosing a different course of action is simply a different option. Not right, nor wrong.

The gravity of the event that unfolded right in front of me on Gazos Creek on Sunday, combined with referencing a deep history of past real world experiences in motorcycling, and intimate knowledge of that road, made the decisions taken to seek out a post-event debrief with the Red Ducati Rider .... the right choice. Have no regrets, and would do the same again in a heartbeat; if all the circumstances were identical.

Who knows, perhaps the pace at which the Red Ducati Rider was traveling when he (unfortunately) crashed a mile up the road was actually slower than the speed he would have been traveling had we not had our “Come to Jesus” discussion? Perhaps the extent of his injuries (or worse) would have been even more severe if he’d continued on at full-tilt pace, as he was at the time I'd observed him leading up to us stopping and talking?

Could be. Only that particular Ducati rider knows for sure. We're all just speculating.

Who knows, maybe by not blowing off this entire event and just letting it go, and keeping it silent, some other rider in that group, or rider now reading this thread, may now be kept from being involved in a similar incident in the future?

We’ll never know for sure. I guess it depends upon a person’s viewpoint of the glass being “half-full”, or “half-empty” when looking at things.

I think that you did a great thing by posting this thread. It definitely gives the event the exposure it should get. I hope that many more will choose to learn from this.

 

[Gary J]

After the fact, these stories have a way of making it seem that Gary (or I) threw caution to the wind and gave chase without regard for personal safety or that of others. It really wasn't the case in my incident and I doubt it was in Gary's.

Thanks for sharing your experiences in a somewhat similar arena. Glad your encounter also consisted of you avoiding impact.

You're 100% correct in your statement quoted above Andy. Never was caution thrown to the wind from the moment the turn-around was initiated, until we met up and had our discussion.

The riding done to catch back up to the RDR was not at a pace any faster than I've ridden that section of road hundreds of times over the years. As that there were riders in their group behind us, I was confident that I'd eventually come upon the RDR and be able to talk at some point. Whether it was 1 mile up the road, or 5, really didn't matter.

Upon approach, I consciously slowed to not seem threatening, and allowed the RDR a chance to realize I was there, and observe his reactions. When he slowed some, and moved right a bit, I safely went past and gradually began easing to a stop, with my hand out to indicate a request for him to pull over with me. Which he very willingly did, without drama.

The discussion was consciously started by NOT throwing out some angered comment like "What the _uck were you doing?". Resisting an emotional reaction was consciously done, as I knew I wanted to establish 2-way communication. Starting any conversation in such a tone is a sure fire way to "fail!".

I reminded myself that the final objective of the whole search-out effort ..... was to get recognition of the gravity of the event and a commitment for behavior change (by the RDR) to prevent any future occurrence to any other rider ..... not just as a venting session for my own sake. Though I must say admittedly that shaking hands at the end, and hearing him state he'd learned from the event ... and would change his future behavior in that regards .... did feel good

Had the RDR's reaction to my initial approach and efforts been less receptive, and less owning of one's error, I was prepared to change approaches and just move past the events as needed at that point.

 

[afm199]

Maybe you got lucky. What if the guy (and his friends) had been assholes or worse? Your message might have made them more stubborn or started a road rage incident. What if you had crashed catching them or one of them had crashed when you tried to pull them over? It wasn't a decision I would have made unless I was really really angry, and then of course it would have been a terrible decision.

I'm curious, did you talk to the leader of the group as well?

Gary is a pretty cool headed dude in most ways. i have never seen him angrily confront someone, but have seen him assertive many times. He is pretty much the kind of guy who will communicate the message with a maximum of message and minimum of chest pounding. I am glad he said something, though I personally might have let the individual just go on to kill himself.

 

[budman]

This indeed is a thread that has meaning and info that is extremely valuable to share.

All that view.. hopefully will digest the pertinant pieces that may affect your ride.

We will make sure this one stays around for a while.

 

[moto-rama]

Based on Sunday's events, it is suprising to hear that he has 15+ years of riding experience.

It is interesting that the law of averages missed this particular rider. It usually catches up right around the 2 year mark, right when the technical ability is passed up by a lack of common sense and self preservation.

 

[Carlo]

The purpose of my post was that we should all use this as a reality check to think about our focus and mindset when riding, not to let RDR off the hook for his bad decisions. The street is not a racetrack and RDR shouldn't have been riding it like it was. I think RDR made a series of bad decisions, possibly exacerbated by a distracted mindset or lack of focus, and ultimately crashed. He ownes the bad decisions and the result.

When I read any crash (or near miss) account, I always do a quick "What I can learn from this?" analysis. In this case, the lessons learned for me are:
1 - Ride your own ride, don't get sucked into the "must keep up" mindset of group rides
2 - be aware of your focus and mindset and have the self discipline to STFD or stop if you're riding distracted or pre-occupied
3 - every decision you make when riding is critical, one bad decision can kill you (and possibly others), even if you've made a lifetime of good decisions to date...
4 - (edit) Never initiate a pass unless you have a clear sight line of the area needed to pass and oncoming traffic

Explanation accepted. I shouldn't be impuning any suggestions regarding safer riding techniques, and not concentrating on your ride is a valuable technique.

 

[9rPilot]

Explanation accepted. I shouldn't be impuning any suggestions regarding safer riding techniques, and not concentrating on your ride is a valuable technique.

No Problem! Actually gave me an opportunity to more fully develop my own thoughts on the incident.

 

[Carlo]

No Problem! Actually gave me an opportunity to more fully develop my own thoughts on the incident.

That's one of the reasons that I get involved in this type of conversation. I'm able to fine tune my logic and learn to explain my point of view more accurately, plus, it gives me an opportunity to learn how I might be wrong.

 

[Coastal Coyote]

Very educational thread, and glad to see it remain civil to allow it to remain educational. Also glad to hear that RDR looks to be alright and will hopefully be out of the ICU real soon.

 

[Cheyenne]

I'm not sure how/what the Crash Analysis Forum has to do with any of this.

Seriously, are you not aware that your communication style in that forum makes people think you're being a dick all the time when you're trying to be precise and technical?

I almost called you out on it a long time ago, but I was concerned that it might actually affect you, and your technical analysis in there kicks ass...people should just be thick skinned when asking "exactly how did I mess up here?" when they are thinking they are asking "exactly how did the world screw with me here?". I figured I didn't have any actual improvement to offer, as I can't do what you do as well.

 

[bpowa]

Gary J, I have a brick to give you. I shat it when I came around the corner and saw you facing sideways, making a u-turn.

The crest was completely blind and went straight into a downhill, right hand, decreasing radius turn. It's a bit tricky and comes at you fast. Combine this with the adrenaline from being yelled at by another rider moments before, and the realization after you come over the crest that you're headed straight for the embankment, increases the chances of the situation ending unfortunately.

Also, wishing death and pain onto others for their mistakes and choices is not considering respecting the lives of others...

that crest is way blind.. during one of the rides.. i came upon a family of 4 chilling right on the top in the middle of the road.. it was a twitchy moment. I yelled at them.. I had to.

 

[Cosmo-M3]

As a friend of the rider, and one who has ridden with him literally up and down California, I can also attest to his character and tempered attitude towards riding.

I was not there, and if the situation is as Gary suggests, it sounds like a mistake was made. One that, my friend I'm sure will take full responsibility for when his health is in less imminent severity.

In the mean time, I'd urge many of our critics to calm their tones and wait for our friend to respond. Please be assured, our objective is not to persuade fellow riders of this forum, but rather to offer something in light of our friends absence.

 

[Karmak]

After reading Gary's write-up and the references from folks that know Red Duc Rider (RDR), I can't help but think that RDR must have been riding distracted that day. I'll take that as a "lesson learned" for myself. I know I've gone riding with stuff on my mind before and found myself out of the groove and a bit off on judgement. Couple that with the "must keep up" mindset of a spirited group ride and bad things can happen (obviously). I have to remind myself that this sport is extremely unforgiving and that one bad decision invalidates a thousand good decisions. I think we all could use this as a reference point to self check our focus and mindframe when riding and have the self discipline to STFD and/or take a break until we're back at full capability.

Gary - Glad this was only a near miss for you
RDR - Hope you have a full and quick recovery...

+1. We know the first move was crazy. The second (crash) could have been a result of loss of focus due to whatever craziness prompted the first move, compounded by the lecture/embarassment.

One day while starting out on a ride, my son (who sometimes rides with me) pulled over and said he wasn't going to continue because he "felt" unfocused. That was the height of self-awareness and maturity and was the element missing with the Duc rider that day.

 

[budman]

As a friend of the rider, and one who has ridden with him literally up and down California, I can also attest to his character and tempered attitude towards riding.

I was not there, and if the situation is as Gary suggests, it sounds like a mistake was made. One that, my friend I'm sure will take full responsibility for when his health is in less imminent severity.

In the mean time, I'd urge many of our critics to calm their tones and wait for our friend to respond. Please be assured, our objective is not to persuade fellow riders of this forum, but rather to offer something in light of our friends absence.

Makes perfect sense to me.

 

[Burning1]

+1. We know the first move was crazy. The second (crash) could have been a result of loss of focus due to whatever craziness prompted the first move, compounded by the lecture/embarassment.

I've found myself on a couple of occasions, pushing it after a near miss, much like someone might try to walk off a strained muscle. In general, I think it's a bad idea -- sometimes it's easy to get over-confident on a motorcycle, and get into real trouble.