The question...... (How to decrease motorcycle fatalities)

[masameet]

I don't know the answer. As it seems in some of the cases, poor judgment was exercised. Can good judgment be taught? Probably. Give a rider a little education and then he or she might at least have the skills and risk assessment needed to make better judgments.

And I'm not trying to toot my own horn here regarding our East Bay Cone Practice (and you are more than welcome to come up and join us this coming Saturday). Still what if the CHP promoted, in concert with other local municipal police depts. and sheriff's offices, free monthly or quarterly motorcycle cone practices? Would the alarming rate of rider accidents, injuries and fatalities then lessen to some degree? [Shrug] Rider accidents will happen, no matter the rider's experience, as riding is dependent on rider judgment as well as rider skill, rider understanding of road conditions, and bike soundness. Still cone practice would provide several benefits:

1) It would be a great way to promote communication between the riding and the LE communities

2) It would give riders a chance to learn valuable motorcycle-related info and skills taught by professional riders in a non-threatening environment

3) It would probably give riders a good idea about the various California Vehicle Codes that pertain to them (if there was a Q&A session )

4) It might even give some riders an understanding of what parts of their bikes need regular maintenance

 

[brichter]

Interesting article on some statistics for 2006. I always wonder why #11 is what it is. Lack of paying attention due to short trip maybe?

Linkie

IMHO, either most rides being of a short distance with a local destination, complacency due to being so familiar with the local roads, or some combination of both.

 

[jrace]

Requiring a M1 to purchase? Nope. What about collectors who never ride?
I purchased my first car at age 14. I did not have a license nor did I ever drive it. I did tear it apart and rebuild it then sold it before I got a license. (MGTD)

I know other people who buy, restore and sell old cars and bikes that never drive or ride them.

All registered non-op I imagine....

-jim

 

[gmcsid]

I don't know the answer. As it seems in some of the cases, poor judgment was exercised. Can good judgment be taught? Probably. Give a rider a little education and then he or she might at least have the skills and risk assessment needed to make better judgments.

And I'm not trying to toot my own horn here regarding our East Bay Cone Practice (and you are more than welcome to come up and join us this coming Saturday). Still what if the CHP promoted, in concert with other local municipal police depts. and sheriff's offices, free monthly or quarterly motorcycle cone practices? Would the alarming rate of rider accidents, injuries and fatalities then lessen to some degree? [Shrug] Rider accidents will happen, no matter the rider's experience, as riding is dependent on rider judgment as well as rider skill, rider understanding of road conditions, and bike soundness. Still cone practice would provide several benefits:

1) It would be a great way to promote communication between the riding and the LE communities

2) It would give riders a chance to learn valuable motorcycle-related info and skills taught by professional riders in a non-threatening environment

3) It would probably give riders a good idea about the various California Vehicle Codes that pertain to them (if there was a Q&A session )

4) It might even give some riders an understanding of what parts of their bikes need regular maintenance

I like your idea!

I'd also like to see more advertisements for motorcycle safety and awareness. I noticed the newer drunk driving commercial where the vehicles are filled with alcohol include a motorcyclist and that's a good start.

 

[kross]

More moto awareness taught in Drivers Ed for new drivers. Get kids used to the idea of watching for riders from the get-go. I know it won't help much, but it's a relatively easy thing to implement. Also, find a way to lower the cost of the MSF class. I've spoken to lots of people (and yes, I'm one too) who say they'd like to take the class and learn the skills, but the cost is pretty prohibitive when you think of the kind of money a new rider should be spending on a bike + gear. Maybe have dealerships include the cost of a class in the price of the bike? I don't know. I know it won't help those like myself who buy used from private parties, but it's a start.

 

[Lovedoc]

Rel, does anyone in law enforcement think that profiling sport bikes is working? I've been pulled and cited for stuff this last year that wouldn't warrant a second look in a cage or cruiser. Yeah, that will keep me off the street because I can afford to cage and do track days, but isn't this this Cops vs the Bad Biker Bois game just adding fuel to the flame?

I agree with tiered licensing, and think mentoring and more training are sorely needed for the new riders. Don't know what to do about the Riding Under the Influence crowd, maybe some "Red Asphalt" type films with a moto emphasis as required viewing? Significant evidence exists that riding drunk is even more suicidal than driving drunk.

 

[DataDan]

Rel wrote: What is it going to take, and what can be done to lower the number of deaths of motorcycle riders?

I know this isn't any help for your presentation, but I'm not convinced that the problem is growing. Or, if it is, that it's growing disproportionately compared to the growth of motorcycling itself (see my recent post in this thread).

The 332 statewide deaths YTD doesn't seem excessive. In 2006, there were 343 fatal crashes (a slightly different count than deaths, but it's all I have) through September.

As to the San Jose area, it sounds like last year was a fluke. In the 5 previous years ('02-'06) Santa Clara County averaged 8 fatal crashes a year (that's all jurisdictions, not just CHP).

Twisted wrote: What is the cause of these deaths? Too much bike for experience? Insufficient training? Alcohol (rider or driver)? Cagers inability to see us? Speeding/racing?Lack of gear? Anything else?

See the thread Motostats 2006 for an analysis of US data, and also some posts on Bay Area deaths. In California, sizeable majority of motorcycle fatalities are not alcohol related. An even larger majority are helmeted. Considering only the Bay Area sportbike deaths in 2006, riders usually make their own trouble with excessive speed. I'd like to do a similar analysis statewide, but it would be a bit of a time-consuming project.


I think we should also consider another possibility: There's not much that can be done about it.

Take this young lad, who was discussed recently in another thread:

Blaise Meadows, who was 19 at the time, was allegedly racing down the 241 toll road with another rider when he crashed into the back of the car, said Farrah Emami, spokeswoman for the District Attorney's office.

According to court records, Meadows had been cited four times for speeding from November 2005 to June 2007.

On the day of the crash, he was allegedly driving on a suspended license, Emami said.

Half an hour prior to the crash Meadows sent instant messages to friends, prosecutors reported, discussing his intent to speed on his motorcycle and flee from police.​

WTF do you do about someone like that? Does he need track days? An advanced riding course? Or does he do what he does because it's high risk, not in spite of it?

 

[MotardJunkie]

Rel your stats are exactly what I would imagine. 4 middle aged cruiser deaths 3 involving alcohol...


4 sport bikes ALL under 30....


Nothing I can come up with about the cruiser dudes except sit outside their hangouts as they leave a bar....thats standard procedure already id guess....


But actually I would say legislature should drastically INCREASE penalties if riding a motorcycle under the influence...worse fines and a mandatory 1 year loss of licence DUI on a motorcycle and drop the limit from .08 to .04

Is this unfair? not really in my mind...motorcycles are much more dangerous and risky than cars...easier to get into an accident drunk on a bike by far....its a balancing act just to stay upright....I mean you wouldnt want anyone FLYING while drunk.....

and you would say well flying isnt driving....CORRECT....and RIDING is not DRIVING either....



As for sportriders I would say we need legislation there too...tiered licensing due to years riding.

As for what you as an officer can do to keep sport riders alive well....the high presence on the mountain for a while worked but I got pulled over about five times myself and im over 40 and wasnt speeding any of those times...I did have bright leathers on and a bright flashy sportbike....so if you pull over someone it had better be for a real violation....not guessing whether or not my licence plate has an angle or just because im in a group of riders so you give all our bikes the once over but with no real reason for pulling us all over.....


Its tough to come up with ideas to help you personally out with your project Rel...most good ideas would require legislation.

 

[OldFatGuy]

I am of the opinion that legislation should be created to make it illegal to sell a motorcycle to someone without out an M1.

I could get behind this. In addition, I think it might help if the rules for people with M1 licenses were the same as those for drivers with commercial licenses (no traffic school, .04% BAC limit).

 

[Rel]

LEO's aren't profiling sport bikes. Yes, they have had a lot of attention recently, but you know as well as I do, that the squeaky wheel gets the grease. The sport bikes get a lot of press, and the cruisers dont.

The problem is this: You don't see the cruisers doing tricks on the highways. The public views sport bikes riders as trouble makers, hooligans, law breakers. However, every person you ask about the biggest problem with cruisers are loud pipes.

By "profiling" bikes we got a lot of unlicensed riders off the roads. By towing as many bikes as we can, we "in theory" save lives. By enforcing vehicle code violations, we remove as many impaired drivers as possible.

Saving lives is the goal, isnt it?

Rel, does anyone in law enforcement think that profiling sport bikes is working? I've been pulled and cited for stuff this last year that wouldn't warrant a second look in a cage or cruiser. Yeah, that will keep me off the street because I can afford to cage and do track days, but isn't this this Cops vs the Bad Biker Bois game just adding fuel to the flame?

I agree with tiered licensing, and think mentoring and more training are sorely needed for the new riders. Don't know what to do about the Riding Under the Influence crowd, maybe some "Red Asphalt" type films with a moto emphasis as required viewing? Significant evidence exists that riding drunk is even more suicidal than driving drunk.

 

[reckon]

As you are all aware, we've had a large number of riders killed this year, 332 statewide to be exact.

In the San Jose area alone, we've had 8 this year, up from the 1 we had last year.

To support the above statement:
Motorcycle Deaths Up In California

SAN FRANCISCO (KCBS) - According to the California Highway Patrol, 2008 is quickly shaping up to be the deadliest year for motorcycle deaths.
“The only thing in common is that they’re all male, but even then, all their ages are varying as well,” states California Highway Patrol Officer Todd Thibodeau.

In the San Jose area last year there was only one motorcycle related death; however, Officer Thibodeau says through September that number has shot up to eight. KCBS' Chris Filippi reports

California’s mandatory helmet law was enacted in 1992, although officials warn helmets alone will not protect you from a disastrous incident.

“The last motorcycle fatality we had the rider was wearing a helmet, D.O.T. approved, but he was wearing a t-shirt, shorts, and flip-flops, not the type of riding gear you want to be on if you’re involved in a collision,” says Officer Thibodeau.

Through September at least 332 bikers and passengers have died in motorcycle accidents statewide.
--------------------------------------------

Why am I taking about this? Well....

I've been asked by my superiors to come up with a presentation, or ideas, or anything that will help lower the number of riders dying on the highways.

I figure the best people to pose this question too, would be us.

With that being said let me ask you all this:

What is it going to take, and what can be done to lower the number of deaths of motorcycle riders?

This isnt going to be a quick fix, but we (Public Safety) really want to address this issue. To many riders are dying on the roads. Yes, there are more riders than ever on the roadways, but any life that we can save is worth saving, IMO.

Thoughts?

stop selling 140+hp-185+mph bikes to people that have had a MC license for 6 months, would be a GREAT place to start,....

and somehow find a way to make cagers more aware of us would be the second,......

 

[brichter]

LEO's aren't profiling sport bikes. Yes, they have had a lot of attention recently, but you know as well as I do, that the squeaky wheel gets the grease. The sport bikes get a lot of press, and the cruisers dont.

The problem is this: You don't see the cruisers doing tricks on the highways.

That's actually a good point. The only thing they might be guilty of in the public's eye is making too much noise while going slowly in a straight line!

 

[brichter]

stop selling 140+hp-185+mph bikes to people that have had a MC license for 6 months, would be a GREAT place to start,....

Shit, we're lucky if the even have a license the way it is now...

 

[mookiera]

Of the 8 deaths in San Jose.....
Of the 4 cruisers, three had alcohol in their system.
Of the 4 sportbikes, all were moving violations.

Of the 4 cruisers, all were middle aged men.
Of the 4 sportbikes, all were in their twenties.

Please specify the cause of the 4th cruiser death.
Were the other 3 cruisers @ fault in their accidents?
Alcohol in the system is too vague, without knowing the
BAC%, and your statement doesn't clarify that it was the causal factor.

I know 2 of the sportbikers were presumed to be racing on Silver Creek.
What were the moving violations for the other 2 and was it the primary factor causing their deaths?

What is the ratio of registered sport bikes to cruisers?
Were any of the riders unlicensed or uninsured?

 

[Rel]

I dont have access to the BAC reports, right now.

As for the two sportbikes that were "racing" on Silver Creek Road, I don't have access to that either. San Jose PD handled that investigation.

The stats that I have are for CHP investigated collisions.

Please specify the cause of the 4th cruiser death.
Were the other 3 cruisers @ fault in their accidents?
Alcohol in the system is too vague, without knowing the
BAC%, and your statement doesn't clarify that it was the causal factor.

I know 2 of the sportbikers were presumed to be racing on Silver Creek.
What were the moving violations for the other 2 and was it the primary factor causing their deaths?

What is the ratio of registered sport bikes to cruisers?
Were any of the riders unlicensed or uninsured?

 

[Kimballthegreat]

Of the 8 deaths in San Jose.....

4 were cruisers
4 were sportbikes

Of the 4 cruisers, three had alcohol in their system.
Of the 4 sportbikes, all were moving violations.

Of the 4 cruisers, all were middle aged men.
Of the 4 sportbikes, all were in their twenties.

If people don't know it's bad to drive while intoxicated by now, you'll never get the message through. Those twenty-somethings that ride recklessly will do it regardless.
I think the only thing that can my logically and cost effectively implemented would be to require ALL new riders to take the MSF course at a discounted rate. Then have the class spend more time on defensive riding. If the riders have the skills they need to be better defensive riders then I think their chances of riding without a major incident goes up.

I don't there's much you can do to get 'dumb' riders to ride smarter, just get to riders before they develop 'dumb' habits.

 

[Rel]

There has to be consequence to people's actions. Drive drunk lose your car. Borrow someone's car while driving drunk, lose that car too. Sell the cars, fund more cops on the roads.

Believe it or not, WE have the power to make change.....

 

[tzrider]

I am of the opinion that legislation should be created to make it illegal to sell a motorcycle to someone without out an M1.

Excluding private person deals, but dealerships should require licenses.

I don't disagree with this, but do you have any data that shows the percentage of fatalities where the rider was unlicensed?

As another poster mentioned, without knowing more about the root causes, suggesting remedies would be like going fishing with a rifle. A lot of studies have a way of lumping riders into accepted categories that may or may not have much to do with the true root cause. They're not useless, as they at least narrow the possibilities down, but they aren't very precise, either.

Masameet mentioned judgment. You could say most accidents, if not all, can be termed a failure of judgment. Judgment requires knowledge, attention, the ability to foresee possible outcomes, caring and a realistic outlook. Some riders lack basic information, whether it be matters of operating the bike, selecting appropriate gear, traffic laws and so on. Some riders seem not to care about dangers they are aware of. Some seem unable to really believe that the bad things that happen to others can happen to them.

The stats we have available rarely shed light on the relevant details that distinguish one root cause from another. I wish I had something useful to offer as a solution to that, but I don't. Maybe by kicking it around, some ideas will bubble up. I hope so, because it seems that a lot of enforcement and education programs originate from assumptions that aren't always on target. It's not to say they're not well intentioned or operating on the best info they have. But if you're looking to make a presentation that includes a call to action, it would be great if the action is focused on specifics that can make a difference. I'm sure that's what you want as well.

 

[ILOAD2]

LEO's aren't profiling sport bikes.

False.

 

[mookiera]

Interesting article on some statistics for 2006. I always wonder why #11 is what it is. Lack of paying attention due to short trip maybe?

Linkie

Just like with cars, most all trips involve mileage that is close to home. Many
trips are only a few miles from home.

The study says that 60% of those involved in accidents had no helmets.
Hard to believe. I don't ride much in LA, but I don't remember ever seeing
anyone without at least some kind of skid lid here in northern CA.

That study left a lot of questions unanswered and some of their conclusions were worthless. I wonder if they got a passing grade for their study.