The question...... (How to decrease motorcycle fatalities)

[ThumperX]

I think the vehicle driver's test should include some moto specific questions. Perfect if someone FAILED the test because he/she was unaware that lane sharing is legal (if I have to miss a baby seat question it's only fair)

I personally waffle about tiered licensing; I've seen some talented 20 year olds out there who are not insane. I believe dealer responsibility. But we aren't seeing too much minor mortality so how can we limit hp to age. As the stats illustrate, the middle aged seem to be contributing as much as the yutes.

I think safety checkpoints, heavily discounted armor, and maybe PD mentoring.

How about these restrictions only apply to the boyz as the numbers point to us girls handling our stuff without getting killed.

 

[nweaver]

A: MANDATORY MSF for all to get an M1. Or at least make getting an M1 from the DMV more annoying (eg, have parking-lot circle days be 1 per month per DMV or suchlike), which makes the MSF de-facto mandatory.

B: Combine with Rel and other's suggestion MANDATING M1 for the registered owner for motorcycle purchases at dealers and (if possible) private parties.

 

[squidhunter]

A few things the State can do:
Mandate M1 for street registered bikes
Mandate formal training for new riders
Tiered licensing (never happen )

A few things LEO's can do:
Step-up the deuce hunting
Directly participate in formal training programs and emphasize the consequences of stupidity (eg. stupid hurts)
Offer supplemental training/practice
Public safety campaigns to educate both cagers and riders on motorcycle safety.

 

[reckon]

Proof?

ride a sportbike ANYWHERE in the northern contra costa area: walnut creek, concord, etc,.....

all the proof you'll need after you get lit up four times in 3 miles while looking for an address while riding a completely bone stock R6 completely within all traffic laws, and then get told "we are performing an enforcement intensive exercise, looking for un-licensed drivers", but I didn't see any cars getting pulled over, just EVERY SPORTBIKE.

try it, you'll see, and it doesn't even matter what time of day, or month, or year, they love sportbikes up there, and will pull you over just to tell you about that.

 

[gixxerjoeca]

ride a sportbike ANYWHERE in the northern contra costa area: walnut creek, concord, etc,.....

all the proof you'll need after you get lit up four times in 3 miles while looking for an address while riding a completely bone stock R6 completely within all traffic laws, and then get told "we are performing an enforcement intensive exercise, looking for un-licensed drivers", but I didn't see any cars getting pulled over, just EVERY SPORTBIKE.

try it, you'll see, and it doesn't even matter what time of day, or month, or year, they love sportbikes up there, and will pull you over just to tell you about that.

I would bet there are way more unlicensed drivers in cars than there are on bikes?So why dont they try the same B.S. on cars.Just pulling people over to check for a proper license is full of FAIL.I cant believe this is really happening

 

[Alayna]

As you are all aware, we've had a large number of riders killed this year, 332 statewide to be exact.

Sadly that's a high number. I would be curious to know the probable cause of the accidents. i.e. How many out of those 332 were hit by other drivers, were in highways or intersections, were riding UTI, were riding too dangerously, who were simply inexperienced. Is there anyway to tally some of those? We know that they were killed on motorcycles, but what were they doing, or was it even their fault?

Thx

Edit: I just saw Twisted's post.. same things I'd like to know!

I think dealers should be required to have buyers show proof of M1 licenses, insurance and MSF (or comparable training) completion before they can purchase a bike. I also think that anyone under the age of 21 should not be able to purchase anything over 250cc and 18 yr olds and under have their parent or legal guardian with them to sign. I've learned that there are a lot of teenagers to early 20's that aren't mature enough to take the risks associated with riding seriously and just want to ride and look cool.

Free, easily available extensive training should be available in each city and mandatory before getting an M1 licenses. I also think a lot more motorcycle awareness should be incorporated in the DMV handbook, classes, tests. Most cagers don't know how unsafe it is for us to slam on our breaks, should they decide to left turn in front of us, they don’t realize we can crash because of that. They also need to know that lane sharing is legal, so they don't get so pissed and 'want to open their door' as we ride by etc.

I worry most about the ever-growing trend of stunting/ bike clubs and how much it appeals to the younger kids. I don’t know how many times some teenage boy told me they wanted to get a Gixxer 1K or an R1 for their first bike. Clearly they don't know the dangers and are all about looking cool, like the guys they see on the blinged out bikes.
Perhaps, just as they have track days for us speed lovers, maybe they can open a 'stunt park', somewhere they can go and do their stunts legally/safely and learn from others.

 

[Twisted]

Based on my informal readings I've taken some personal actions:
1. I don't drink and ride. Period.
2. I'm careful with my entrance speed into turns.
3. I wear a yellow helmet with refective tape and a reflective "halo."
4. I take extra caution at all intersections.

Every little bit helps and these are the biggies statistically if I recall correctly.

That is what I took out of looking at the stats. Of course they could be bias, skewed, any number of things, but it seems logical. I expect to get hit at an intersection which has saved me a couple times just by anticipating.

If one of the major causes are cagers hitting riders or turning in front of them, some better avoidance training at MSF or other training facility might help the young and experienced rider both. I believe the advanced msf is supposed to be more heavily focus on that, but I haven't been. Maybe have more of a focus on learning crash avoidance at MSF?

Also, I am all for putting some motorcycle related questions on the cager exam. Something startling regarding what a car versus moto accident does to a moto? How many deaths are caused at intersections a year by cagers?

Harsher punishments for UTI would be nice, especially those who actually do cause harm. How many times do you hear about a drunk driver killing someone and getting off with a light sentence?

Stupid is as stupid does, there is always going to be that population that drives/rides too fast for their own skill level, and who drinks and drives/rides. Education, laws and punishments with teeth, and training I think would help. How much? Who knows, but at least someone is looking at it, because it can't hurt.

 

[Cyclesuzy]

I am of the opinion that legislation should be created to make it illegal to sell a motorcycle to someone without out an M1.

Excluding private person deals, but dealerships should require licenses.

Rel - having some knowledge of legislation this would seem like a good first start. A reasonable starting point to more stringent legislation like tiered-licensing, is to require M1 licensing and insurance prior to the purchase of a motorcycle. The only opposition I can think of off the top of my head would be the dealership coalition which I am sure would just love to sell a bike to any 3 year old with a bank account. (J/K sorta).

I'm not much of an political advocate but I could contact my local senator or assemblymember's staff people and see if they would be interested in authoring such a piece of legislation. In my experience, it's best to start with staff and get them on board before approaching the members directly.

 

[DataDan]

My complaints are:
1.) Cars are killing bikers at an alarming rate.

Motorcyclists create their own problems, contributing to many--if not most--of their own deaths. Here's what I found about Bay Area sportbike deaths in 2006:

Of the 27 fatal sportbike crashes, 19 were clearly caused by riders, 2 were clearly caused by drivers, 5 were caused by a combination of rider and driver actions, and 1 was a shit-happens incident where a motorcyclist was caught up in a 9-vehicle melee resulting from debris dropped in heavy freeway traffic. In other words, 24 of the 27 sportbike deaths that occurred in the Bay Area in 2006 could have been prevented by the rider.

What contributions did riders make to those 24 preventable crashes?

• In 7, the motorcycle ran wide in curve and hit an oncoming vehicle, guardrail, tree, fence, or other fixed object.
• In 2, a stunt went wrong.
• In 2, the rider made an unsafe pass and hit, in one case, the vehicle being passed as is turned left, and in the other case an oncoming vehicle.
• In 2, the rider ran a red light and hit a crossing vehicle. One was running from police.

In the remaining 11 crashes, "excessive speed" was cited. But that doesn't tell us much because 100mph could be perfectly safe in one situation and 25 could be deadly in another. So I looked into these crashes in more detail to find out how speed contributed.

• In 5, the rider was speeding in the presence of traffic and hit a turning or crossing vehicle. In some of these, the driver also contributed by failing to yield right of way.
• In 4, the rider lost control of the motorcycle on a straight road and hit either an oncoming vehicle or a fixed object.
• In 1, a drunk running from police lost control and hit a curb, signpost, and tree.
• In 1, at 100mph, the motorcycle rear-ended a car traveling at 70mph on the freeway.

If there's a lesson here, it's that sportbike riders make their own trouble; they're usually not victims of other motorists' errors.​

Spring 2008 started out with an extraordinary number of motorcyclist deaths compared to previous years. In fact, that's what prompted budman to launch the 1Rider initiative that's now underway. The number of March/April incidents was so shocking that I kept track of them. Most were caused by riders, not drivers.

1. March 14: [name snipped], 20, of East Palo Alto was killed on 101 near Marsh when his Suzuki rear-ended another vehicle.
   
   
2. March 18: [name snipped], 43, of Corte Madera was killed when a hit-and-run driver in a pickup crossed the centerline in a sharp turn on Panoramic Highway near Stinson Beach and hit his Ducati. The driver was later arrested and charged with felony vehicular manslaughter.
   
   
3. March 21: [name snipped], a 12-year-old Napa boy, was killed when a 90-year-old woman driver turned left in front of his father's Kawasaki Concours, the vehicles collided, and the boy was thrown into the car's windshield.
   
   
4. March 22: [name snipped], 22, of San Francisco was killed on Skyline in San Mateo County when he lowsided into an oncoming pickup.
   
   
5. March 23: [name snipped], 26, of San Jose was killed on Highway 1 near Tunitas Creek when an oncoming vehicle crossed the centerline and hit the vehicle just ahead of [name snipped], triggering a chain reaction that he was tragically caught up in.
   
   
6. March 23: [name snipped], 52, of San Jose was killed when he lost control of his Harley on Highway 85 in San Jose after clipping a slower moving vehicle.
   
   
7. March 27: [name snipped], 21, of Hayward was killed on 880 in Fremont when, while riding with a friend, he lost control and hit the center divider.
   
   
8. March 27: [name snipped], 48, of Citrus Heights was killed when his Harley hit another vehicle while lane-splitting on I-80 in Fairfield.
   
   
9. March 30: [name snipped], 37, of San Jose was killed in an early-morning single vehicle crash of unknown cause on 101 in San Jose.
   
   
10. April 2: [name snipped], 18, of Rohnert Park was killed in an early morning crash near Cotati after running off the road in a curve and hitting a tree.
    
    
11. April 4:[name snipped], 29, of Alameda was killed on Highway 9 in Santa Cruz County when he lost control of his Suzuki in a right-hand turn and collided with an oncoming pickup.
    
    
12. April 5: [name snipped], 25, of Watsonville was killed on Old San Jose Road near Soquel when his Honda collided with a car entering the road from a business.
    
    
13. April 6: [name snipped], 42, of Hercules was killed on Bear Creek Road in Contra Costa County when he lost control of his Suzuki in a turn and hit a guardrail
    
    
14. April 6: An unidentified San Francisco man was killed on Richmond Parkway in Richmond when he lost control of his motorcycle and hit a tree.
    
    
15. April 9: [name snipped], 65, of Geyserville was killed on Alexander Valley Road north of Healdsburg when he lost control of his motorcycle and hit a utility pole.

Any effort to reduce the number of motorcycle deaths would most productively focus its attention on motorcyclists, not drivers.

 

[iehawk]

The way I see it...

More people here think of riding as fun and play, something cool to do... in other words, they don't take it seriously.

Riding (just like driving) is a very serious thing. In other countries, they understand this concept better since for many of them, it's the way of life since riding sometimes is the prime mode of transportation.

Base on Rel's stats on the 8 deaths: on the cruisers, alcohol involved, this is not just motorcycle-specific problem. On the sportsbikes, moving violation - I'm guessing speeding, same thing, it's not motorcycle-specific problem.

What I see at the core of the problem is lack of awareness and education. We can talk about creating more rules on what to wear and not... but I don't think it will solve anything in the long run.

And I agree, it should be illegal to sell a motorcycle to someone without a license, whether by a dealer or private. Have DMV and any organization that help with registration (AAA) check for driver's license before processing.

Maybe the PD can pull over those who are wearing less gear, even if it's not mandatory (no jacket, no shoes), not necessarily to give them tickets, but at least mention to them what could happen. Give them a printout, brochure with pictures as what could happen to them. Then ticket them for non-compliant mods. Most of the ones who ride with less gear would have more of this type of violations.

I'd love to see more education involve in license preparation, both for cars and motorcycles. Having someone (family/friends) teaching the next rider/driver how to ride/drive can only go so far.

And while we talk a lot here about motorcycle awareness, maybe it's time to do the same for car drivers? A lot of them seem don't realize that we exist on the same road with them. And a lot of them seem to think of us just out there to have fun.

A minivan changed lane into me from lane 1 to 2, I had to swerve and sped up to avoid him. He was changing lane because a CHP was riding on lane 1. The cop saw this, gave him the look then sped up. He should've given that driver a ticket. That was reckless and dangerous.

With a more thorough awareness/education, the problem is you won't see the result right away (short term), but in time (long term), as more people realize the seriousness of the issue, more will eventually catch up.

Edit: but Data Dan is right. We do cause most of our problems ourselves. And I hope we can soon stop blaming others and all acknowledge this.

I wrote what I wrote because in my commute I feel like going through a survival course almost every day. The overall safety awareness on the road is just not that high.

 

[Enchanter]

Motorcyclists create their own problems, contributing to many--if not most--of their own deaths.

In other words, 24 of the 27 sportbike deaths that occurred in the Bay Area in 2006 could have been prevented by the rider.

If there's a lesson here, it's that sportbike riders make their own trouble; they're usually not victims of other motorists' errors.

The number of March/April incidents was so shocking that I kept track of them. Most were caused by riders, not drivers.

Any effort to reduce the number of motorcycle deaths would most productively focus its attention on motorcyclists, not drivers.

Dan...Thank you!

I've always felt that darn near all of our problems are are self generated.

 

[mookiera]

How about these restrictions only apply to the boyz as the numbers point to us girls handling our stuff without getting killed.

From one of the often quoted studies about motopsycho accidents,

19. Motorcycle riders between the ages of 16 and 24 are significantly over-represented in accidents; motorcycle riders between the ages of 30 and 50 are significantly under represented. Although the majority of the accident-involved motorcycle riders are male (96%), the female motorcycle riders are significantly over represented in the accident data.
(of course they can't be talking about our great female barfers)

Don't discriminate against the males. If you spell it boyz, U gotta spell it girlz.

 

[mookiera]

[*]March 14: [name snipped], 20, of East Palo Alto was killed on 101 near Marsh when his Suzuki rear-ended another vehicle.


[*]March 18: [name snipped], 43, of Corte Madera was killed when a hit-and-run driver in a pickup crossed the centerline in a sharp turn on Panoramic Highway near Stinson Beach and hit his Ducati. The driver was later arrested and charged with felony vehicular manslaughter.


[*]March 21: [name snipped], a 12-year-old Napa boy, was killed when a 90-year-old woman driver turned left in front of his father's Kawasaki Concours, the vehicles collided, and the boy was thrown into the car's windshield.


[*]March 22: [name snipped], 22, of San Francisco was killed on Skyline in San Mateo County when he lowsided into an oncoming pickup.


[*]March 23: [name snipped], 26, of San Jose was killed on Highway 1 near Tunitas Creek when an oncoming vehicle crossed the centerline and hit the vehicle just ahead of [name snipped], triggering a chain reaction that he was tragically caught up in.


[*]March 23: [name snipped], 52, of San Jose was killed when he lost control of his Harley on Highway 85 in San Jose after clipping a slower moving vehicle.


[*]March 27: [name snipped], 21, of Hayward was killed on 880 in Fremont when, while riding with a friend, he lost control and hit the center divider.


[*]March 27: [name snipped], 48, of Citrus Heights was killed when his Harley hit another vehicle while lane-splitting on I-80 in Fairfield.


[*]March 30: [name snipped], 37, of San Jose was killed in an early-morning single vehicle crash of unknown cause on 101 in San Jose.


[*]April 2: [name snipped], 18, of Rohnert Park was killed in an early morning crash near Cotati after running off the road in a curve and hitting a tree.


[*]April 4:[name snipped], 29, of Alameda was killed on Highway 9 in Santa Cruz County when he lost control of his Suzuki in a right-hand turn and collided with an oncoming pickup.


[*]April 5: [name snipped], 25, of Watsonville was killed on Old San Jose Road near Soquel when his Honda collided with a car entering the road from a business.


[*]April 6: [name snipped], 42, of Hercules was killed on Bear Creek Road in Contra Costa County when he lost control of his Suzuki in a turn and hit a guardrail


[*]April 6: An unidentified San Francisco man was killed on Richmond Parkway in Richmond when he lost control of his motorcycle and hit a tree.


[*]April 9: [name snipped], 65, of Geyserville was killed on Alexander Valley Road north of Healdsburg when he lost control of his motorcycle and hit a utility pole.
[/list]
Any effort to reduce the number of motorcycle deaths would most productively focus its attention on motorcyclists, not drivers.

I agree that a bikers best safety mechanism is between his ears.
But, the above cited incidents do show @ least 27% attributable to drivers,
and possibly 44%. Statistics are not static.

 

[Ant]

I agree that a bikers best safety mechanism is between his ears.
But, the above cited incidents do show @ least 27% attributable to drivers,
and possibly 44%. Statistics are not static.

In other words, 24 of the 27 sportbike deaths that occurred in the Bay Area in 2006 could have been prevented by the rider.

That's roughly 89% rider error.

 

[Enchanter]

I agree that a bikers best safety mechanism is between his ears.
But, the above cited incidents do show @ least 27% attributable to drivers,
and possibly 44%. Statistics are not static.

I'm not sure how you get "attributable to drivers" out of that information. There isn't enough information there to attribute the crashes to car drivers. Were cars involved sure. Whether the crashes can be attributed to the car drivers (27-44% of the time) is unknown.

 

[Rel]

So, what I got so far is this:

1. Require dealerships to ensure that new buyers have an M1.
2. Require all new riders to go through a rider safety course.
3. Stiffer penalties for persons operating vehicles without proper endorsements and/or licenses.

What about putting together a video that is handed to all new bike owners promoting safety, testimonials from riders and family members of fallen riders, and basic equipment issues. Can't force people to watch it, but if it helps one rider, wouldnt that be the payoff?

 

[Rel]

I do and I have. I guess I just roll with it because I understand what is happening and why.

ride a sportbike ANYWHERE in the northern contra costa area: walnut creek, concord, etc,.....

all the proof you'll need after you get lit up four times in 3 miles while looking for an address while riding a completely bone stock R6 completely within all traffic laws, and then get told "we are performing an enforcement intensive exercise, looking for un-licensed drivers", but I didn't see any cars getting pulled over, just EVERY SPORTBIKE.

try it, you'll see, and it doesn't even matter what time of day, or month, or year, they love sportbikes up there, and will pull you over just to tell you about that.

 

[Ant]

So, what I got so far is this:

1. Require dealerships to ensure that new buyers have an M1.
2. Require all new riders to go through a rider safety course.
3. Stiffer penalties for persons operating vehicles without proper endorsements and/or licenses.

What about putting together a video that is handed to all new bike owners promoting safety, testimonials from riders and family members of fallen riders, and basic equipment issues. Can't force people to watch it, but if it helps one rider, wouldnt that be the payoff?

Thought about having another open house type event? Invite the local politicians (assemblymen, congressmen, etc) and have an actual open discussion where they can hear our thoughts first hand.

 

[Rel]

Well....

I hadn't but.... I guess I can. Would that be something people would go to?

Thought about having another open house type event? Invite the local politicians (assemblymen, congressmen, etc) and have an actual open discussion where they can hear our thoughts first hand.

 

[Cyclesuzy]

Thought about having another open house type event? Invite the local politicians (assemblymen, congressmen, etc) and have an actual open discussion where they can hear our thoughts first hand.

Ant great idea ... if anyone needs contact information for their legislators' staff people, please let me know. Depending on if/when/where event is held, I would invite that district's reps.