• There has been a recent cluster of spammers accessing BARFer accounts and posting spam. To safeguard your account, please consider changing your password. It would be even better to take the additional step of enabling 2 Factor Authentication (2FA) on your BARF account. Read more here.

things you dont learn at MSF - cornering on grades

JRVulcan

Ding! Fries are done!
Joined
Jun 21, 2008
Location
San Jose
Moto(s)
2007 Vulcan 900 Classic (sold), 08 FZ6
so being a total noob rider i decided to hit my first twisties. sierra road in san jose.

yeah, need new shorts now

what was bothering me was not so much going uphill andn cornering - obviously press and roll more - but downhill

msf teaches you to never break in a corner or turn, to maintain acceleration. but doing such a thing on a decent downhill grade could mean uncomfortable speeds thanks to gravity

any advice?
 
Yeah I was noticing this on Palomares.. not that bad but still.. I think the thing that worked for me is just slowing extra before I went into the turn. Match your entry speed to the situation and all that stuff they talk about...

Don't have any real advice. Maybe someone with experience will show up. :)
 
Even the most twisty downhill road will have short distances of straights. Use those to brake for a short period of time... ? :dunno

Also keep your bike in lower gear all the time.. second, third..
 
I keep the revs up to use engine resistance to keep my speed in check. But watch it when you get back on the power....
 
Yeah I do a lot of mountain riding, I even have the perfect canyon run between me and work :twofinger.

Switchbacks are all about throttle control. Hairpins with a big rise or drop are the worst! I don't know how big bikes work, but keep it in low enough gear and you shouldn't gain any speed (obviously dont go for acceleration). And like they're saying, slow down more than you would, in case you do speed up through the turn. Remember having to brake at all in a hairpin going downhill is bad bad bad. Honestly I would keep it to easier roads until you've got some more experience.
 
when its pretty steep downhill, I will scoot off the bike and prop my inner leg against my front fairing so that I'm stable as I brake before the turn and prep for the turn. As I throw the bike into the turn, i release the brake / input maintenance throttle and swing my inner leg out according to how i feel like.... if its really steep, i may not swing my leg out at all....


but yea i like going downhill. it really teaches you how to brake before turns. and gravity can be used in place of maintenance throttle.
 
can you folks recommend some training-twisties? preferably in the south bay area, but anywhere is good.

i've got a month and 600 miles total in the saddle if that helps at all. passed my MSF last weekend. but just normal street riding doesnt present enough of a challenge curve-wise to learn enough
 
so being a total noob rider i decided to hit my first twisties. sierra road in san jose.

yeah, need new shorts now

what was bothering me was not so much going uphill andn cornering - obviously press and roll more - but downhill

msf teaches you to never break in a corner or turn, to maintain acceleration. but doing such a thing on a decent downhill grade could mean uncomfortable speeds thanks to gravity

any advice?


The MSF teaches you everything you need to know for cornering on the street.


Let's start with slowing to a speed commensurate with the difficulty of the curve prior to entering it. The handbook tells you that a rider should evaluate the radius, slope, suface condition, and other traffic before entering a curve - in your particular instance, you should have noticed the slope of the road, slowed more prior to entering to compensate for the increased effects of gravity on your acceleration and traction, and been smoother applying your throttle to prevent unwanted acceleration.


The two cornering mistakes I see novices making repeatedly are either a failure to slow enough prior to entering a turn to compensate for conditions or decreased visibility (blind turn), or failure to smoothly roll on the throttle in the curve causing the to enter the turn too fast for their skill or comfort level.


Slow down a bit more, and keep practicing!


-Q!
 
T
Let's start with slowing to a speed commensurate with the difficulty of the curve prior to entering it.
-Q!



and this is where the MSF fails

you cant look completely through a corner with a giant mountain in the way. you have no idea of it's difficulty most times until you are in it

slow. look. press. roll. that is what is taught


slow..lots of brake, stay in 2nd

look...mmm? mountain. cant see shit

press...check!

roll...hell no. yellow sign says 20 or 25.

msf in-class needs to be longer imo to cover all these possibilities. the only things we talked about concerning grades were parking and starting. not even stopping!! thankfully i read enough forums on safety to get that one down.
 
Last edited:
and this is where the MSF fails

the msf has not failed you


first of all, the msf class is motorcycle elementary school,while i think that it is a great thing that everyone should do, you are still a long way from being a competent rider.

motorcycle riding is a lifelong learning expirience, i am sorry that your 600 miles of street riding and a degree from the msf school have not adequitely prepared you for all of the possibilities that one can encounter on your motorcycle journeys.

go get some seat time.:)


btw i would appreciate it if you would refrain from telling everyone how great a rider you are and giving out advice until you have been riding for like twenty years. thanx. there are plenty of idiots around here, don't be one
 
btw i would appreciate it if you would refrain from telling everyone how great a rider you are

are you always a jerk?

quote me where i said i was a great rider

i detailed what i experienced and my thought process, and asked a question because a lot of it was counter or non-existent in msf.

being that we live in the bay area, there really is no excuse for up/down grade riding not being covered other than saying 'what's the biggest problem motorcycles face on a steep grade? gravity' gee thanks.

msf says to accelerate through turns. my question still stands - does the lack of acceleration from the rear wheel and allowing it to be gravity-driven increase your risk of crashing and how do other riders deal with it. how does that affect traction on both wheels? what if gravity in 2nd gear starts to force your turn far too wide in an ever-decreasing turn that you have never ridden before where you cant look through the turn?

all relevent questions.
 
Last edited:
oh ahh...some advice,

why don't you try slowing down a little more on the downhills so that you can maintain positive throttle without gaining too much speed


you can also try leaning over the bars,pushing the bike down under you, sticking your foot up next to the front fender and gassing the piss out of it
 
i meant to say, stop the ego before it starts.

and yes i am a jerk

what ego?

where in the slow. look. press. roll. part did i display ego?

slow..duh that is common sense at least for people that are not jerks

look..again common sense unless the only thing you can see is a mountain

press...again, common sense and basic skills

roll...yeah..rolling on a down angle in second gear on a bike with 5 gears that can - with only gravity - hit 35 mph with no throttle

you would do better to lose YOUR ego and give pointers from your experience than to bash people with questions

slow. look. press. roll. is in the ridercourse handbook. and again i ask - can acceleration from gravity truly substitute acceleration from your rear wheel AND for those bikes like mine that may be longish in low gears how does one deal with the curve without getting to uncomfortable speeds?

i thank those that posted their thoughts and experience. i plan to put them to work today. i was already slowing and staying in second gear, however i may need to consider first on this machine due to it's weight with me on it.


edit: and lose the sarcastic bits on the training forum. sarcasm does not translate into text. sarcasm is equal parts emotion and vocal inflections. neither of which come out in text unless the person you are targeting it towards knows you personally
 
Last edited:
are you always a jerk?

quote me where i said i was a great rider

i detailed what i experienced and my thought process, and asked a question because a lot of it was counter or non-existent in msf.

being that we live in the bay area, there really is no excuse for up/down grade riding not being covered other than saying 'what's the biggest problem motorcycles face on a steep grade? gravity' gee thanks.

msf says to accelerate through turns. my question still stands - does the lack of acceleration from the rear wheel and allowing it to be gravity-driven increase your risk of crashing and how do other riders deal with it. how does that affect traction on both wheels? what if gravity in 2nd gear starts to force your turn far too wide in an ever-decreasing turn that you have never ridden before where you cant look through the turn?

all relevent questions.

riding your bike a little might answer some of those questions

asking for more traction than either tire is able to provide increases the risk of crashing, rolling on the throttle keeps the front end from having too much traction asked of it, as well as some geometry and physics that i will not get into now.

the part for you to think about is...uphill or downhill,the bike wants the same things to be happy.
 
and this is where the MSF fails

you cant look completely through a corner with a giant mountain in the way. you have no idea of it's difficulty most times until you are in it

slow. look. press. roll. that is what is taught


slow..lots of brake, stay in 2nd

look...mmm? mountain. cant see shit

press...check!

roll...hell no. yellow sign says 20 or 25.

msf in-class needs to be longer imo to cover all these possibilities. the only things we talked about concerning grades were parking and starting. not even stopping!! thankfully i read enough forums on safety to get that one down.


The MSF has not failed you. If you can not see completely around the corner, then you must slow to a speed that is commensurate with your site lines. You assume that its difficulty is the nastiest, buckled, decreasing radius, tourist u-turning, deer crossing, drop off into the abyss corner you have ever seen.


Again, you MUST asess the radius, slope, surface condition, and traffic condition prior to entering the turn. If you can not see far enough through the turn to do each of these steps with certain accuracy, you must assume the worst.

Remember that the MSF gives you ideas and strategies - their actual application is up to you. Your mantra should be "It's my fault. It's my fault. It's my fault.". This is the only way to ensure you do everything you can do minimize your risks on the street. :thumbup

You should re-read your workbook - sounds like you don't recall as much as you may think. The book expressly talks about evaluating a curve's slope, along with starting/stopping on slopes and cornering clearance on crowned (off-camber) roads.

(And FWIW, the yellow speed advisory signs are recommended entry speeds for their respective corners.)


-Q!
 
Last edited:
i never bashed you or said that you had an ego problem, i said "hey man, do not an ego problem, a lot of new riders have ego problems, don't be one of those guys ok buddy, good luck man, nice to meet you bro, wanna fuck my sister?"
 
are you always a jerk?

quote me where i said i was a great rider

i detailed what i experienced and my thought process, and asked a question because a lot of it was counter or non-existent in msf.

being that we live in the bay area, there really is no excuse for up/down grade riding not being covered other than saying 'what's the biggest problem motorcycles face on a steep grade? gravity' gee thanks.

msf says to accelerate through turns. my question still stands - does the lack of acceleration from the rear wheel and allowing it to be gravity-driven increase your risk of crashing and how do other riders deal with it. how does that affect traction on both wheels? what if gravity in 2nd gear starts to force your turn far too wide in an ever-decreasing turn that you have never ridden before where you cant look through the turn?

all relevent questions.


Again, you seem bitter about the information you learned in a basic motorcycle safety course. I'll urge you to read every response without trying to judge it and without trying to place blame anywhere except upon yourself as the operator of your motorcycle. There are many MSF coaches that actively participate in this forum and each one undoubtedly knows the curriculum more thoroughly than you do - please re-read your workbook, and visit the MSF website for streaming video (www.msf-usa.org).



If you have a curve whose slope is so steep and whose radius is so tight that you can not at least apply maintenance throttle throughout the turn, then you entered the corner too fast. Period. If the slope and/or radius severity surpised you, then you were not applying proper technique before you entered the turn. There should never be any surprises on the road ~ever~ that are outside of the rider's ability to recognize before they become a safety issue. If you find yourself being caught off guard by road conditions or traffic conditions, you are either not paying enough attention to your riding, not paying enough attention to traffic, or have not developed the foresight to predict/recognize/respond to road and traffic hazards - this is common for novices (and a common cause of single-vehicle crashes), and means that one needs to ride ~slowly~ and cautiously while they're learning.

You simply need to react to any unknown variable as if it were a hostile variable. Shadow on the road in the middle of a curve? Treat it like a pile of sand. Blind corner? Treat it like the worst thing you could expect is waiting for you in the middle of the curve.

As for gravity vs. throttle - they do not have the same effect on your motorcycle's chassis. One is pushing you forward, the other is pulling you forward. One loads the rear, the other loads the front. You can steer with your throttle, but you can not predictably steer with gravity - rolling off the throttle is typically only going to make your bike feel heavy and give you vague and sloppy feedback.

Slow, look, press, roll. Search, evaluate, execute. Those are 7 words that, when used proficiently, will prevent you from getting in a situation that exceeds your skill and/or comfort level time and time again.
 
and this is where the MSF fails

you cant look completely through a corner with a giant mountain in the way. you have no idea of it's difficulty most times until you are in it

slow. look. press. roll. that is what is taught


slow..lots of brake, stay in 2nd

look...mmm? mountain. cant see shit

press...check!

roll...hell no. yellow sign says 20 or 25.

msf in-class needs to be longer imo to cover all these possibilities. the only things we talked about concerning grades were parking and starting. not even stopping!! thankfully i read enough forums on safety to get that one down.
Extending the classroom session(s) will not eliminate the feeling that a rider gets when they encounter a particular situation on their motorcycle.

Please take a look at your Student Handbook, specifically the "Roll" part. I think that you will find that it says to "maintain or slightly increase" your speed. Herein lies your answer. If you do not have the confidence to accellerate (for a variety of reasons) then do your best to at least maintain your speed.


being that we live in the bay area, there really is no excuse for up/down grade riding not being covered other than saying 'what's the biggest problem motorcycles face on a steep grade? gravity' gee thanks.
It is not possible to cover each and every situation during the course. What is covered, is the techniques that you should use. If you are not able to use them, or are uncomfortable doing so, that is very different than saying that the "MSF fails".

does the lack of acceleration from the rear wheel and allowing it to be gravity-driven increase your risk of crashing and how do other riders deal with it. how does that affect traction on both wheels? what if gravity in 2nd gear starts to force your turn far too wide in an ever-decreasing turn that you have never ridden before where you cant look through the turn?
all relevent questions.[/QUOTE]
As was pointed out already, rolling on the throttle will shift the weight to the rear wheel. That is best for many reasons, not the least of which is that it allows the front wheel to devote most of its traction to cornering. I think we can agree that that is very important in a downhill turn, no?

If you are unable to maintain your desired path of travel, then it's rider error. It isn't the turn that "forces you wide", but rather the rider that isn't controling the motorcycle onto their desired path of travel. I will agree that riders tend to drift wide in downhill turns. I disagree that they are forced to do so. Coasting, not looking in the right place, stiff arms, decelleration, and panic/stress, will all contribute to this happening. But the rider can still maintain control and tell the motorcycle where to go.
 
that was exactly the answer i was after enchanter, thank you

i know that there is a 'feel' one must learn. i am also one who can learn when the 'why's' are fully explained to me, not just the 'how's'

i want to thank flyinghawaiian for recommending to me earlier today to try the uvas area. i had held off because i see so many group rides going down there that it just had me feeling this was a passage for the super experienced only

so i broke out google maps, figured out how to get down there and rode. fantastic ride. wasnt much traffic, quite a few other riders :)twofinger to those that didnt wave back) and i learned a lot applying what this thread and others pm'd me

nowehre near as difficult as sierra was. i think i'll do this ride and others like it a few times a week before i tackle calaveras. the only mistake i caught myself making repeatedly was target fixation, but i'm catching myself early on that and not doing too bad in breaking the habit.

did have a helluva scare though - as i was leaving the mcdonald's parking lot before this whole ride started a bee flew up and into my helmet (it's an xxxl hjc cl-max, i have a big head) and proceeded to crawl along the inside of my visor. but i didnt let it take all of my focus. i pulled over, turned off the engine before pulling the helmet off without crashing/wobbling/weaving/dropping.

:twofinger bee.
 
Back
Top