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This is why ABS haters are wrong

I can't understand how people draw a direct line between having a bike with rider aids and automatically relying on them. :wtf
 
GAJ said:
I remember descending a steep hill that was all gravel on my non ABS F800ST and thinking "Jesus Christ this would not end well on the ABS F800ST" I traded in to get the non ABS version. The ABS version had a "anti stoppie" feature which would activate if your rear wheel so much as hopped a 1/2 inch off the ground during a hard stop on high friction bumpy pavement, (ie. it would take away your front brakes to prevent a stoppie).

I'm quite sure descending the steep gravel road, which had a stop sign at the bottom, would have resulted in either a crash in the gravel due to excessive speed or, if it didn't, a complete blowing of that stop sign. :(
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That's a weird feature GAJ. I've never heard of one that takes away your front braking to prevent a stoppie. Is that part of the ABS system or the traction control?
 
danate said:
That's a weird feature GAJ. I've never heard of one that takes away your front braking to prevent a stoppie. Is that part of the ABS system or the traction control?
Click to expand...

I may have this totally wrong but I have seen accounts of early ABS implementations from BMW being problematic on gravel/dirt roads because they would modulate braking continuously on downhill low-traction surfaces resulting in effectively no braking at all. To my understanding they added a toggle to disable ABS and updated the systems so that is no longer an issue.


edit - found the video clip I had in mind
[youtube]OrD65i3FUcU[/youtube]
 
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Enchanter said:
I can't understand how people draw a direct line between having a bike with rider aids and automatically relying on them. :wtf
Click to expand...

When you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Knowing that you can hammer on the brakes even when it's wet and slippery will definitely change the way you ride, even if you don't think about it consciously.

Someone brought up the analogy of airbags earlier - one unfortunate side effect of improved car safety is that people drive a lot less carefully than they otherwise would. Just think how much more carefully people would drive if the driver's airbag were replaced with a sharpened spike in the center of the steering wheel. It's not all that different with ABS.
 
danate said:
That's a weird feature GAJ. I've never heard of one that takes away your front braking to prevent a stoppie. Is that part of the ABS system or the traction control?
Click to expand...

I think most ABS systems do this, but some of them have settings that might allow stoppies.
 
ilikefood said:
When you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Knowing that you can hammer on the brakes even when it's wet and slippery will definitely change the way you ride, even if you don't think about it consciously.
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I'm not sure how you can say "definitely". None of that applies to anyone in my family, or any of my friend, and (when it comes to the brakes) I don't ride my S1000rr any differently than my 1998 R1.

Someone brought up the analogy of airbags earlier - one unfortunate side effect of improved car safety is that people drive a lot less carefully than they otherwise would. Just think how much more carefully people would drive if the driver's airbag were replaced with a sharpened spike in the center of the steering wheel. It's not all that different with ABS.
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Can you point me to the data that shows the direct link between airbags and that people drive less carefully?
 
Enchanter said:
I'm not sure how you can say "definitely". None of that applies to anyone in my family, or any of my friend, and (when it comes to the brakes) I don't ride my S1000rr any differently than my 1998 R1.

Can you point me to the data that shows the direct link between airbags and that people drive less carefully?
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i am gonna close my eyes next time i drive my car,

because HEY i got an airbag!
 
Seven11 said:
i am gonna close my eyes next time i drive my car,

because HEY i got an airbag!
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Well considering how many people drive while texting, checking facebook, reading, the reality is not that far from your example.
 
ilikefood said:
When you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Knowing that you can hammer on the brakes even when it's wet and slippery will definitely change the way you ride, even if you don't think about it consciously.
Click to expand...

Is that what you would do if you rode an ABS equipped bike?
 
UDRider said:
Well considering how many people drive while texting, checking facebook, reading, the reality is not that far from your example.
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The behavior doesn't result from the development of airbags, it results from the development of cell phones.
 
Enchanter said:
Can you point me to the data that shows the direct link between airbags and that people drive less carefully?
Click to expand...

There are a number of articles, this is one of the earlier and more provocative ones:

https://doclib.uhasselt.be/dspace/bitstream/1942/4002/1/behavioraladaptation.pdf

I would pick ABS for my bike anytime it's possible, I ride ATGATT, but I have taken chances - and I think everyone at some point has taken chances - that we cannot defend.

I like technology that works, but feel something that I cannot argue for, when riding older, harder to handle, simpler, more manual bikes.

It's a bike! It makes you feel alive! ABS or not.

/Soren
 
tzrider said:
Is that what you would do if you rode an ABS equipped bike?
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I expect that I would feel a bit more comfortable in conditions with uncertain traction (e.g. in the rain), and yeah, I would probably ride a bit differently than if I knew that I didn't have ABS to save my ass. Anyone who says ABS makes absolutely no difference in his or her riding is a bit deluded.
 
tzrider said:
The behavior doesn't result from the development of airbags, it results from the development of cell phones.
Click to expand...

Again, do you think that replacing airbags with a sharpened spike in the middle of the steering wheel (and no seatbelts) would change how people drive?
 
ilikefood said:
I expect that I would feel a bit more comfortable in conditions with uncertain traction (e.g. in the rain), and yeah, I would probably ride a bit differently than if I knew that I didn't have ABS to save my ass. Anyone who says ABS makes absolutely no difference in his or her riding is a bit deluded.
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Well, call me deluded, then.

The only way in which ABS has affected my riding is when it fires prematurely at threshold braking. As a part time coach at the Superbike School, I don't have a dedicated bike assigned to me. I'm always using another instructor's bike and ABS may or may not be enabled. I've stopped paying attention to whether it is or not, as my approach to riding and braking doesn't change either way.
 
ilikefood said:
Again, do you think that replacing airbags with a sharpened spike in the middle of the steering wheel (and no seatbelts) would change how people drive?
Click to expand...

I suspect they wouldn't use the horn as often.

Do you seriously think drivers are more willing to crash their car with an airbag in place?
 
ilikefood said:
Anyone who says ABS makes absolutely no difference in his or her riding is a bit deluded.
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Have you considered that you may be projecting? I mean, (indirectly) telling me that I'm deluded because of something I own...is rather ironic don't you think? You know nothing about my skill set, my judgement, or my behavior. Basically, you don't know squat about me, or damn near everyone else that you paint with that wide brush.

BTW, comparing airbags with spikes to prove your point? It doesn't strengthen your position. In fact, it's just silly,
 
sjuels said:
There are a number of articles, this is one of the earlier and more provocative ones:

https://doclib.uhasselt.be/dspace/bitstream/1942/4002/1/behavioraladaptation.pdf

I would pick ABS for my bike anytime it's possible, I ride ATGATT, but I have taken chances - and I think everyone at some point has taken chances - that we cannot defend.

I like technology that works, but feel something that I cannot argue for, when riding older, harder to handle, simpler, more manual bikes.

It's a bike! It makes you feel alive! ABS or not.

/Soren
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link. Saved for reading later!
 
tzrider said:
I suspect they wouldn't use the horn as often.

Do you seriously think drivers are more willing to crash their car with an airbag in place?
Click to expand...

Do you seriously think drivers wouldn't change how they drive if even a minor fender-bender resulted in death or serious injury?

I think people are certainly more willing to take risks when they think the consequences won't be as severe, which amounts to the same thing as being more willing to crash with an air bag.
 
Enchanter said:
Have you considered that you may be projecting? I mean, (indirectly) telling me that I'm deluded because of something I own...is rather ironic don't you think? You know nothing about my skill set, my judgement, or my behavior. Basically, you don't know squat about me, or damn near everyone else that you paint with that wide brush.

BTW, comparing airbags with spikes to prove your point? It doesn't strengthen your position. In fact, it's just silly,
Click to expand...

There are certain things about how humans work that are universal. It's not really projecting, just as it wouldn't be projecting to say that you have two arms and two legs. I don't need to know squat about you to make that statement.

My point about airbags is that the perception or risk (whether conscious or subconscious) changes how people behave.
 
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