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Ticketed for being in a park after hours

"we were obeying the signs posted (and therefore, conviction for something not posted is entrapment)" :wtf

Driving off a cliff and running in front of a bus are not posted, are those entrapment also? :wow
Where do you come up with some of this crap?
 
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If I were the judge/commissioner, you'd get to about #3 and told that you better start addressing the issue or you're not going to have anything more to say.

Stick to concrete facts. If you get into a debate about "unconstitutionally vague" sunsets, you're going to get hammered.
 
If I were the judge/commissioner, you'd get to about #3 and told that you better start addressing the issue or you're not going to have anything more to say.

Stick to concrete facts. If you get into a debate about "unconstitutionally vague" sunsets, you're going to get hammered.

Reminds me of a guy in court recently that wrote "under duress" next to his name when he signed his citation that was issued by another officer. In court he tried to recite some federal code that says you can force someone into a contract under dress and so the ticket was not valid. The judge did not buy his argument. What’s even more fun is I stopped a guy last week and he tried to sign the same thing; that s when I realized it was the same idiot. He gave me the same lecture and I told him I was not selling him anything or entering into a contract. If fact he had the right to refuse to sign his signature to the citation and go to jail; or only put his signature on the citation. The only thing on the citation was his signature.
 
Reminds me of a guy in court recently that wrote "under duress" next to his name when he signed his citation that was issued by another officer. In court he tried to recite some federal code that says you can force someone into a contract under dress and so the ticket was not valid. The judge did not buy his argument.

I don't mean to get too far off topic... but, pissing off a Judge/Commissioner w/ frivolous crap (one's personal agenda) will piss him or her off. :|

FWIW-Don't wear the cape to court dude. :thumbup
 
At this point, I would think you guys should be arrested for trespassing. It's not a point or something that could go on your criminal record, so you should be glad there are local ordinances in force that are cheaper to contest.

You could be a half meter in the park 30 minutes 1 second after sunset and it's citeable.

Your affirmative defenses are:
- Not in the park
- In the park within half an hour of sunset
- Have a permit

Oh, and I've sucessfully beaten 5 out of 6 citations in my life. I would highly recommend again your laundry list of speculative defenses.
 
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Reminds me of a guy in court recently that wrote "under duress" next to his name when he signed his citation that was issued by another officer.
I saw (wasn't my ticket) a guy open the dictionary and begin reading the definition of "reasonable". He was cited for 21658a - unsafe lane change, and wanted to argue that he was a reasonable person, thus her citation was invalid. He got shut down numerous times by the judge, and just got frustrated and mad.

Argue facts, make a plea for mercy. Those are the only 2 things I've seen work at all.

Saizai - I wish you the best of luck, but you've got to show that you weren't there, or that it wasn't a violation. You'll never convince the judge that the agency lacks the authority to codify law - they wouldn't do it if they couldn't. Their officers wouldn't write citations if they legally couldn't. Counties are also not cities, yet they have the authority to pass laws. There are many government agencies that pass criminal ordinances.

Being cited for something that is not signed is not entrapment. Of anyone, I would expect you to know that.

You have not been deprived of your rights. You know the section that you were cited for, and know it's an infraction. Just because you don't know the exact fine is irrelevant.

Sunrise and sunset are still just *a time*. There's no beginning and no end. It is just a moment. Wikipedia and other legit places make that quite clear. Dusk, twilight, and others may be nebulous, but sunset is not. It's a published time, and can be easily looked up.

Fines and fees may be excessive. That's judges discretion. You could ask for a reduction. If you go the route that the citation is invalid because of this, though, you will probably be unhappy with the result.
 
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i have no idea what the court would think, but perhaps providing evidence that sunset as seen from the top of russian ridge is significantly (at least 24 minutes given the times you listed above) later than in los altos would have some value.
 
Gordon Baillie <gbaillie@openspace.org> said:
Dear Sai,

Below is the text of MROSD Ordinance 805.3

805.3 After Official Hours Use Prohibited. No person shall enter or remain on District Lands after “Official Hours,” which are defined as the period of one-half hour after official Sunset to one-half hour before official Sunrise the following day without a written permit. The times for Sunrise and Sunset shall be determined by the U.S. Naval Observatory’s official postings for Los Altos, California.

You can find the full text of all District Ordinances on the District's website at WWW.Openspace.org. Click on "Preserves+Maps" then click on "Trail Regulations."

Attached is the current District Bail schedule. However, you should be advised that the amounts shown are not reflective of what will be on a citation, since the courts add a variety of fees to the basic bail amount. If you received a citation, the fine amount will be shown on the courtesy notice which will be mailed to you by the court, or you can contact the court directly. The court contact information is on the citation.

Gordon

Gordon C. Baillie, MBA
Management Analyst/Court Liaison/PIO

Midpeninsula Regional Open Space District

(650) 691-1200 (Office Line)
(650) 691-0485 (Facsimile)
gbaillie@OpenSpace.org
www.OpenSpace.org

PDF attached.

Relevant line:

Adopted 8/25
SECTION OFFENSE Bail Amount P.A. Misd./Inf FILE_DIV RPT_DOJ Add./Rev.
805.3 After official hours use prohibited $35 Y Infraction Traffic N Revision
 

Attachments

  • District Bail Schedule - ADOPTED - 8-25-2004.pdf
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FWIW-Don't wear the cape to court dude. :thumbup

Of course not; this is what the suit-and-tie is for. :twofinger

"we were obeying the signs posted (and therefore, conviction for something not posted is entrapment)" :wtf

Driving off a cliff and running in front of a bus are not posted, are those entrapment also? :wow

This is not at all the same thing.

The signs clearly are intended to advise me of the rules about this particular thing. I obeyed the rules as reasonably understood from that. If in doing so, I am violating the law *that those signs are supposed to cover*, then it's entrapment.

A parallel case would be if a parking sign said "except after 6pm, sat & sun", I parked and didn't pay after 6 or on a Saturday, and it turned out that the actual law regulating it had no such exception. This would again be entrapment, 'cause a reasonable person obeys the sign and is nonetheless "guilty" of the thing the sign is supposed to be advising him how to obey.

Your "not posted" bit is pure red herring.

... wanted to argue that he was a reasonable person, thus her citation was invalid.

That's silly. The question is not whether he's a reasonable person, but whether his actions are reasonable. Not all actions of reasonable people are reasonable. ;)

Argue facts, make a plea for mercy. Those are the only 2 things I've seen work at all.

FWIW almost all the points I listed are based on the "in the interest of justice" leeway the judge has. I.e. given that I was behaving reasonably, I ought not be punished.

You'll never convince the judge that the agency lacks the authority to codify law - they wouldn't do it if they couldn't.

You'll have to excuse me for not believing that a priori. Governments do illegal things plenty; that's what the courts are for, after all. If they never did anything illegal, then we wouldn't have judges overturning laws on a regular basis, m?

In any case, I listed that point as questionable, since I don't (yet) know where MROSD gets its authority.

Being cited for something that is not signed is not entrapment. Of anyone, I would expect you to know that.

That's not what I argued. I argued that it *is* signed, I obeyed the sign, and it is not my fault if doing so ("reasonable" standard applies here) makes me still violate the underlying law.

Just because you don't know the exact fine is irrelevant.

I would disagree with that. Knowing the fine is part of knowing the charges you are up against and thus making decisions about how to handle the case.

Sunrise and sunset are still just *a time*. There's no beginning and no end. It is just a moment. Wikipedia and other legit places make that quite clear. Dusk, twilight, and others may be nebulous, but sunset is not. It's a published time, and can be easily looked up.

Their *beginnings* are certainly published and easily looked up, and defined as "sun is at zero degrees to horizon".

But that does not mean that they are punctual *events*.

E.g. the sentence "we watched the sunset for 20 minutes after sunset" doesn't make sense - you can't watch something after it's finished. Vs. "we watched the sunset for 20 minutes until it ended, after which we left" does make sense. Thus it's an event with duration.

Fines and fees may be excessive. That's judges discretion. You could ask for a reduction. If you go the route that the citation is invalid because of this, though, you will probably be unhappy with the result.

Excessiveness can factor into the constitutionality of a law. 8th amendment: “Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."

And it's not the only point n which I'm arguing that I should be found not guilty, charges dismissed, or fines reduced. That's why there are multiple arguments; they get at different aspects. This one gets at just the excessiveness of the fines.
 
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Saizai:

Based solely on your side of the story, I agree with you in principle. I would agree that the spirit of the law here is to prevent criminal activity in the park during darkness. That should be your ONLY defense. I have spent more hours than I care to remember in traffic court. I watched a guy bring in a Bible and a copy of the Magna Carta as part of his defense. The truth is,, judges don't give a #$%^ about that stuff and quite honestly they tune you out, or worse, view you as an idiot. Judges side with the offender more often times than not when the offender can present a calm, well thought out defense of their actions. In this case I believe you have that opportunity. If you go sideways with trying to prove there is no legal basis for this law,, you will get hosed. If you are truly concerned about this aspect,, bring it up after your case,, because bringing it up during your trial will do nothing but hurt you. This will be the response of the judge if you decide to go that route :rolleyes Trust me on this one. Good luck. If you approach this right, I believe you will prevail.
 
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In any case, I listed that point as questionable, since I don't (yet) know where MROSD gets its authority.

Go back and read my first response. It has the proper California Code reference.

I'm a board member of a HOA. I have the authority to fine, tow cars, and lien units based on the actions of a homeowner and/or his/her guests. I'm not a city or county, but it's in the Code.

If you have to present a defense in court, I keep it very very simple. We watched the sunset, we proceeded to the exit without delay. Take an approach that you felt that your actions weren't criminal, similar to being in a mall or parking lot after stores have closed and you were not intending to loiter or trespass, and you might get some slack or a pass.

In the end, maybe the ranger won't show and you won't get to cite the Constitution.
 
Subpoena the radio log which will specify the exact time the LEO made the stop...you can argue if you had not been stopped you would have exited the area before the statutory time of sunset as stated in the law...the time it took to write you was what kept you in that place after or very close to statutory sunset...it doesn't matter how dark it was, could have been cloudy, that does not change the legal definition of "sunset" which as you noted is spelled out specifically... :2cents

Good Luck, you may need some, but I would fight it just for drill...

To subpoena the records, you can probably talk to the Court Clerk, get the forms and complete and mail/deliver them (not sure, the Clerk will know how)

If the records don't show by the trial date, case dismissed...(in my county anyway)
 
... The signs clearly are intended to advise me of the rules about this particular thing. I obeyed the rules as reasonably understood from that. If in doing so, I am violating the law *that those signs are supposed to cover*, then it's entrapment.


There's an old saying that ignorance is no defense.

There are time tables available online that list when the tide comes in and goes out, when the moon and the sun rise and set, and so on. You can also check the Weather Channel or NOAA for these data, as well as any local news publication Any traffic judge worth his or her salt will also question you regarding the availability of these data. Believe it or not, billions of people rely on these time tables to go about their daily business.

Why can't you admit that your knowledge regarding when sunset begins is simply limited?
 
As a layman, the only argument that MIGHT even work is that effective sunset from the ridge is > 18:15 (so 20 MINUTES later than official sunset). But that is not going to work because the definition is when the sun bips below the horizon, not when light stops, and you weren't on top of a 10,000 foot volcano.

You came down at TWILIGHT, not SUNSET. Theres a difference. Pay the fine.

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/RS_OneDay.php
 
I agree with 5Mary4 and a couple of others, you do have a good case.

When you go to court, the officer will make their case and you will have an opportunity to ask questions first.

Prepare the questions in advance. Cross them off as the officer/ranger goes through their spiel, if they cover the answer in their presentation.
Some may include; what time did you first see me/us? What direction were we heading? Did it appear we were loitering or departing at that time? If you had not detained us at ____(time), what time could you have reasonably expected we would have a) been past the posted sign/gate and/or b) been back to our vehicle(s) to leave the premises? Does it seem reasonable to you that since we were there to WATCH the sun set and we left directly after the sun set, that we would have presumed that since it would not take us more than 30 minutes to depart, that we would never have anticipated or reasonably known we would be in violation of the posted sign?

After he answers any of your pertinent questions, then you can give your testimony. You should have it laid out in an outline form and cover your case at length. You may want to appeal to a "spirit of the law" interpretation, expressing sympathy for the plight of rangers that have to deal with hooligans and loitering teens that are disrespectful to the park premises after hours. Close with a request (or a motion, if you want to be formal about it) that the citation be dismissed in the interest of justice.
 
You'll have to excuse me for not believing that a priori. Governments do illegal things plenty; that's what the courts are for, after all. If they never did anything illegal, then we wouldn't have judges overturning laws on a regular basis, m?
Do you honestly believe there's even the slightest chance they have no authority to pass laws or issue citations - yet they do it anyways? I'll grant the gov't does not always do legit things. But this is an open space district - not the CIA. Either way, my point was that you're not going to sort that out in traffic court.
I would disagree with that. Knowing the fine is part of knowing the charges you are up against and thus making decisions about how to handle the case.
Then figure it out. It's on you at this point. Call the court.

Their *beginnings* are certainly published and easily looked up, and defined as "sun is at zero degrees to horizon".

But that does not mean that they are punctual *events*.
Good luck.

E.g. the sentence "we watched the sunset for 20 minutes after sunset" doesn't make sense - you can't watch something after it's finished. Vs. "we watched the sunset for 20 minutes until it ended, after which we left" does make sense. Thus it's an event with duration.
LOL.


Excessiveness can factor into the constitutionality of a law. 8th amendment: “Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."
LOL again. If the fine was $3K or something then I'd agree. A fine in the area of 100-200 bucks is hardly excessive. Give it a shot.

Your best bet is to go with the higher elevation thus different sunset time. I still think you're going to lose that actual argument. Maybe you'll get leniency (or the judge will agree that you were a legit user and thus should get leniencey). I've issued these citations and had other issue these as well. Never seen anyone successfully contest because they're just too easy to prove.
 
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Why can't you admit that your knowledge regarding when sunset begins is simply limited?

You evidently misunderstood me.

I'm not arguing that the times given by the naval observatory for the *beginning* of sunset are wrong. I'm simply arguing that those are beginning times of an event that has duration.

And in normal English, when you say e.g. "I'll come home half an hour after the game", you don't mean that you're gonna be there as the second quarter starts. ;)

Some may include; what time did you first see me/us? What direction were we heading? Did it appear we were loitering or departing at that time? If you had not detained us at ____(time), what time could you have reasonably expected we would have a) been past the posted sign/gate and/or b) been back to our vehicle(s) to leave the premises? Does it seem reasonable to you that since we were there to WATCH the sun set and we left directly after the sun set, that we would have presumed that since it would not take us more than 30 minutes to depart, that we would never have anticipated or reasonably known we would be in violation of the posted sign?

That's some pretty good advice. Tactfully presented. :thumbup

Question, though: my guess is that it's worthwhile (as in traffic cases, which evidently this is for whatever reason) to do a trial by declaration. For that, I wouldn't get to do this sort of cross-examination - I'd just have to lay out the argument all at once.

Do you have a suggestion for how to better do this?

Do you honestly believe there's even the slightest chance they have no authority to pass laws or issue citations - yet they do it anyways?

To lump this in with our HOA boardmember's comment - Yes.

As an example, I know people whose local HOAs have tried to force them to do various things that was beyond their (solely contractual, not governmental) authority. This resulted in a civil dispute which they won.

As another example, look up "snitch tickets".

So I don't assume that either a) everyone who claims to have authority, does; nor b) everyone who has authority, uses it within its limits.

Remember, this point was made with me not knowing the derivation of the MROSD's authority (which would have to descend from the state government).

It's tangential at this point, anyway...

LOL again. If the fine was $3K or something then I'd agree. A fine in the area of 100-200 bucks is hardly excessive. Give it a shot.

$100-200 is excessive punishment for someone enjoying the wilderness as it is intended. Especially when the fine set by the MROSD was $35.

5x a reasonable punishment is generally unreasonable. MROSD thought a reasonable punisment is $35 (though I disagree that I should pay anything); therefore the $100-200 total is 8th-amendment excessive.

Your best bet is to go with the higher elevation thus different sunset time. I still think you're going to lose that actual argument.

I'll probably try that, but it seems a minor point to me, because I'm not mostly contesting that the *beginning* of sunset was later, but rather that "30 minutes after sunset" cannot be before sunset ends.


Fastfar - Thanks for the suggestion. Is it worth doing this as part of the trial by declaration, or just as discovery prior to the trial de novo (if any)?
 
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Dude, in laymens terms its called "Malum Prohibitum." Its wrong simply because it is. Like running a stop sign or rear ending someone. Judge looks at it and decision is done. Anything stated after that is an excuse unless you come with a truckload of concrete and I don't see it. Well, a little. 80/20.
 
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