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Ticketed for being in a park after hours

saizai said:
According to the US Naval Observatory for today, sunset (begins) at 17:51 and end of civil twilight is at 18:18. Nautical twilight is 18:45, astronomical 19:15. (Civil twilight = sun is 6 degrees below horizon; naut. = 12 deg, astron. = 18 deg. These don't account for terrain and such though, i.e. sunset as perceived.)

Thanks!

- Sai


805.3 After Official Hours Use Prohibited. No person shall enter or remain on District Lands after “Official Hours,” which are defined as the period of one-half hour after official Sunset to one-half hour before official Sunrise the following day without a written permit. The times for Sunrise and Sunset shall be determined by the U.S. Naval Observatory’s official postings for Los Altos, California.
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According to the code, the time is based on USNO for Los Altos. Nowhere can I find the phrase "sunset begins".
U.S. Naval Observatory
Astronomical Applications Department


Sun and Moon Data for One Day
The following information is provided for Los Altos, Santa Clara County, California (longitude W122.1, latitude N37.4):

Wednesday
20 February 2008 Pacific Standard Time

SUN
Begin civil twilight 6:26 a.m.
Sunrise 6:52 a.m.
Sun transit 12:22 p.m.
Sunset 5:53 p.m.
End civil twilight 6:19 p.m.

MOON
Moonrise 4:37 p.m. on preceding day
Moon transit 11:44 p.m. on preceding day
Moonset 6:39 a.m.
Moonrise 5:45 p.m.
Moonset 7:05 a.m. on following day

Full Moon on 20 February 2008 at 7:31 p.m. Pacific Standard Time.
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I think you'll need some official source that says sunset is not a moment in time, but spans a period of time between "17:51" and "X" for the day you were cited. 805.3 appears to be written based on the format and information the USNO provided the times with.
 
saizai said:
E.g. the sentence "we watched the sunset for 20 minutes after sunset" doesn't make sense - you can't watch something after it's finished. Vs. "we watched the sunset for 20 minutes until it ended, after which we left" does make sense. Thus it's an event with duration.
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The sentence doesn't make sense because it's grammatically incorrect. If I write it grammatically, it makes perfect sense: "We watched the sun set for 20 minutes after sunset." You can't watch sunset any more than you can watch 3 o'clock. But you can watch the sun set. You can start watching it set from sometime near noon...which is long before sunset.
 
Actually the sun never technically sets. (And if it did, we'd have no sun.)

What truly happens is the earth revolves around its axis (as it spins in its rotational orbit around the sun). At the point we call sunset, our location on earth is turning away from the sun.
 
"The setting sun, and music at the close, As the last taste of sweets, is sweetest last, Writ in remembrance more than things long past. " -Ranger Billy Shakespeare

I guess the you received a "writ"! :banana
 
saizai said:
This is not at all the same thing.

The signs clearly are intended to advise me of the rules about this particular thing. I obeyed the rules as reasonably understood from that. If in doing so, I am violating the law *that those signs are supposed to cover*, then it's entrapment.

A parallel case would be if a parking sign said "except after 6pm, sat & sun", I parked and didn't pay after 6 or on a Saturday, and it turned out that the actual law regulating it had no such exception. This would again be entrapment, 'cause a reasonable person obeys the sign and is nonetheless "guilty" of the thing the sign is supposed to be advising him how to obey.

Your "not posted" bit is pure red herring.
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Really? I know the examples I posted were for a fun factor but explain how they get murder convictions? I have never see a "no murder or homicide Zone" sign. Can’t be convicted if it’s no posted, entrapment. :wtf :rolleyes

If that’s all it takes they better start putting them up in Oakland and Richmond quick! "no homicide here to corner":laughing
 
arnoha said:
The sentence doesn't make sense because it's grammatically incorrect. If I write it grammatically, it makes perfect sense: "We watched the sun set for 20 minutes after sunset." You can't watch sunset any more than you can watch 3 o'clock. But you can watch the sun set. You can start watching it set from sometime near noon...which is long before sunset.
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To me, your sentence is still ungrammatical.
 
JPM said:
Really? I know the examples I posted were for a fun factor but explain how they get murder convictions? I have never see a "no murder or homicide Zone" sign. Can’t be convicted if it’s no posted, entrapment. :wtf :rolleyes

If that’s all it takes they better start putting them up in Oakland and Richmond quick! "no homicide here to corner":laughing
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Except that again you're misunderstanding what I said in the same way.

Option 1 (what you think I mean): something doesn't have signs. Reasonable person standard applies for what is a Bad Thing that one shouldn't do. No entrapment.

Option 2 (what I actually mean): something does have signs. Reasonable person would trust the sign to describe what they are required to do or not do, for the scope of the sign. Entrapment if the sign implies or states it's OK to do something when it's not - because of that trust.

In this case, there's a sign telling me when I'm not allowed in the park. Thus, I trust the sign. And my behavior followed a reasonable interpretation of it.

Even on #1, I don't think it's reasonable to assume (if no sign is posted) that such a park is closed after sunset. Many parks aren't (or they wouldn't be able to have camping), this one is part of the big bay-encircling trail that people are encouraged to walk for days, and the whole point of that area is to enjoy the wilderness and lack of light pollution. Which also includes enjoying the nightime sky - something one can't easily do near the bay area *other* than in a preserve in the hills.
 
saizai said:
The sign on the gate says it's closed "a half hour after sunset".
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This is the only sign I've been able to find you mentioning. Is there another one?

If this is it, I don't understand your entrapment argument. Unless you're trying to argue three arguments down the road - that sunset is this vague part of the day (not a specific time) and then work backwards to this...
 
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RolnCode3 said:
This is the only sign I've been able to find you mentioning. Is there another one?

If this is it, I don't understand your entrapment argument. Unless you're trying to argue three arguments down the road - that sunset is this vague part of the day (not a specific time) and then work backwards to this...
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I think that's what's happening...
saizai said:
The end of sunset as we saw it was approx 18:30
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USNO says 17:51, but he reasonably claims sunset ended approximately at 18:30, (and redefining what most people understand what sunset is). That "sunset" at 18:30 has no measurable reference other than what he interpreted it to be. So, now that the vagueness has been established, this invalidates the sign, making it entrapment.
 
JPM said:
If that’s all it takes they better start putting them up in Oakland and Richmond quick! "no homicide here to corner":laughing
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Lake Meritt?:

notargetshooting.jpg
 
beaker said:
- You commit a crime
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Accused of one.

- A LEO was involved
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The MROSD is, via the sign.

- The LEO coerced you into committing a crime you would not have done otherwise.
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Correct, since I trusted the sign to tell me what to do / not do, and had I known that what I was doing there was against the rules I wouldn't have done so.

AFAIK entrapment doesn't require some specific LEO acting in person; it can be a systemic effect also.
 
saizai said:
To me, your sentence is still ungrammatical.
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Fortunately for all involved, what is and is not grammatical to you makes no difference to the English language. Unless you can show me where I made a mistake, I'm gonna assume you're just trolling.
 
To summarize and eliminate all confusion: Sai - were you or were you not in the park 30 minutes AFTER sunset?

A simple yes or no would end everything in one clean answer.
 
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