Toyota problems could be electronics

[Dr. Evil]

My suspicions all along: faulty programing.

...it's like we're reliving the 80's with Ford/ GM with the denials and obfuscation of Toyota.

Ever program anything? I'm willing to bet over a quarter billion dollars went into the Prius's software, with probably tens of millions of lines of code, and there are so many possible bugs that all the Linux Nerds in the world couldn't find them all.

There was bound to be SOMETHING major that slipped past.

 

[TheRobSJ]

Honda had drive by wire TWENTY years ago! And they never had a problem with it.

 

[Var]

Honda had drive by wire TWENTY years ago! And they never had a problem with it.

Not in anything with volume. In fact I don't know if any 1990 hondas with drive by wire. Which one?

 

[aminalmutha]

The brakes will still stop the car, however. It'll increase stopping distances, but any modern, properly maintained car's brakes will over-power the engine.

 

[Cheyenne]

The brakes will still stop the car, however. It'll increase stopping distances, but any modern, properly maintained car's brakes will over-power the engine.

But in cars that aren't incorrectly designed, the computer shuts off the fuel when you are stepping on the brake and the gas at the same time.

Also, if the brakes are power brakes, and the engine is wide open, there is usually less vacuum than the system is set up for...so the brakes might feel especially weak.

But many cars will not continue to allow the engine to run hard if the brakes are on at the same time...I guess Toyota thought that kind of thing wasn't needed, because they don't mess up?

 

[Var]

But in cars that aren't incorrectly designed, the computer shuts off the fuel when you are stepping on the brake and the gas at the same time.

Also, if the brakes are power brakes, and the engine is wide open, there is usually less vacuum than the system is set up for...so the brakes might feel especially weak.

But many cars will not continue to allow the engine to run hard if the brakes are on at the same time...I guess Toyota thought that kind of thing wasn't needed, because they don't mess up?

Of course they desgined failsafes into the system. The problem is they had an electrical or software glitch that rendered them useless.

 

[aminalmutha]

Ever done a brake stand? On old-skool cars without all the electric doo-dads, the brakes easily over-power the engine. I realize this is not the same scenario, but I've screwed around plenty in cars with no safety interrupts, both manual and automatic and your brakes WILL stop you. I don't think most people know how hard to press the brakes is the problem. That and the freak-out factor. I've had floor mats get in the way and hold the gas down (I realize this may not be the issue here) and it was a non-issue, period.

 

[TheRobSJ]

Not in anything with volume. In fact I don't know if any 1990 hondas with drive by wire. Which one?

Well the first one here was a 1991 model, but Honda had the NSX ready to go in 1990.

 

[Var]

Well the first one here was a 1991 model, but Honda had the NSX ready to go in 1990.

Honda never had problems with the drive by wire on the NSX? A car with sales numbers I can count with my fingers, and a car who's owners garage them most of the time. Makes sense.

 

[auntiebling]

Honda never had problems with the drive by wire on the NSX? A car with sales numbers I can count with my fingers, and a car who's owners garage them most of the time. Makes sense.

you must have a lot of fingers

 

[Var]

you must have a lot of fingers

I didn't realize exactly how low their sales numbers were. They sold a whole 6 of them in Europe in 1990.

I can count that with one hand and my johnson.

Toyota sells more than twice as many cars with drive-by-wire in a day than the highest number of NSXs sold in an entire year.

 

[Cheyenne]

Of course they desgined failsafes into the system. The problem is they had an electrical or software glitch that rendered them useless.

A properly designed failsafe will not allow this.

Also, I have heard info from people that people have tested...and there is no failsafe on some of these Toyotas, unless they are the first thing that fails, and doesn't affect anything else.

Just putting in some extra lines of code to try to be a failsafe is a FAIL...a real failsafe needs to be somewhat independent of the systems it's responsible for. But that costs more so...

 

[wazzuFreddo]

Anecdotal at best. The recall doesn't include 4runners to start. With thousands of affected vehicles on the road with software problems, they are just ticking timebombs, as anyone with any experience computers...a glitch can present itself any time.
Here's the list.
http://www.toyota.com/recall/?srchid=K610_p228906387

Those not included

http://www.toyota.com/recall/unaffected.html


Handy truck ya got though

Yeh, I know mine is not included. Every thing from the 4Runner is made in Japan

In the preperation stages of a trip to Mexico. Assembling a kit of oil, oil filter, air filter, fuel filter, wrenches. Perhaps even a second spare tire. Also going to have to buy a heavy duty floor mat set.

Going to visit Monterey, San Luis Potosi, Mexico DF and perhaps Tampico or Guanaguato.

 

[Var]

A properly designed failsafe will not allow this.

Also, I have heard info from people that people have tested...and there is no failsafe on some of these Toyotas, unless they are the first thing that fails, and doesn't affect anything else.

Just putting in some extra lines of code to try to be a failsafe is a FAIL...a real failsafe needs to be somewhat independent of the systems it's responsible for. But that costs more so...

I don't know what kind of failsafes they have other than what I know for sure. Those systems are pretty complex. But they do have 2 throttle position sensors that are inversely proportional to eachother on a 5-volt scale. So one TPS goes from 0-5 and the other goes from 5-0 as the throttle blade opens. It also has a sensor on the throttle pedal and maybe even on the motor that opens the throttle blade. All these values have to make sense to the computer or else it should throw a Check Engine light and go into failsafe mode. I'm not sure of the details of what was failling, but if the failsafes don't exist then they'd have to buy the cars back. We'll see what happens. Maybe it's a ploy to delay the inevitable.

 

[auntiebling]

i read an account of toyota going for a land speed record with the prius when it first came out. it didn't really even fit in an existing category for the SCTA at the time, and their scrutineering/tech guys didn't really know what to do with it. officials kept asking questions like "what if the flux capacitor craps out....?" and the accepted reply from toyota people was "the car won't allow it"

i wonder if toyota could pass tech now?

 

[TheRobSJ]

Honda never had problems with the drive by wire on the NSX? A car with sales numbers I can count with my fingers, and a car who's owners garage them most of the time. Makes sense.

Yeah it was a super low volume car. But the fact that they were using it that far back when cars didn't have 32 (or even 64)bit computers and the super fast CAN serial bus communication that cars today have...that tells me that drive by wire isn't that complex of a system. How Toyota fucked this up now, after most everyone has had drive by wire for around a decade, I don't know.

 

[Aluisious]

Yeah it was a super low volume car. But the fact that they were using it that far back when cars didn't have 32 (or even 64)bit computers and the super fast CAN serial bus communication that cars today have...that tells me that drive by wire isn't that complex of a system. How Toyota fucked this up now, after most everyone has had drive by wire for around a decade, I don't know.

How is it the F22 had a software crash and all the avionics died the first time they were ferrying one over the international date line to Japan?

 

[aminalmutha]

Yeah, today's electronics are way, way more sophisticated and therefore, unfortunately, likely more prone to having problems. It's not just having a position sensor telling a servo how far to turn; there are many inter-connected systems.

 

[juha_teuvonnen]

But the fact that they were using it that far back when cars didn't have 32 (or even 64)bit computers and the super fast CAN serial bus communication that cars today have...that tells me that drive by wire isn't that complex of a system. How Toyota fucked this up now, after most everyone has had drive by wire for around a decade, I don't know.

It ain't rocket science. C5 corvettes (1998+) for sure have electronic throttle. Not sure about 97 - it was an oddball model. And it's a freaking chevy-GM product, they sure have built a lot of them, for what they are (less than practical 2 door sports car). The LS1 GM PCM did not have a lot of processing power, which is why the reluctor wheels on C5 has less teeth than on C6.

I am thoroughly disappointed that Toyota didn't get it right. Overall, they have made some solid cars over the last 20 years.

 

[Phaedrus]

I'm thinking someone could make a pretty penny, installing driver accessable battery cut off switches within reach of the driver in Toyotas.