Trackday upgrades

[self_moto]

Hey,

Didn't know where to put these questions regarding upgrades for track days, so I decided put it here

Basically, I just started (novice group), had 4 track days so far (3 days at thill, 1 at sonoma), and thinking about some upgrades. I have street legal bike, and plan to keep it so until I get in group A at least.

There are few things which I consider to upgrade, as prep for next season:

- Seat - I find it quite annoying to have your leathers stick to seat when you're trying to switch from one side to another. Do you know any decent seat which will work with stop fairings? Or I have to use baby powder to make it less sticky?

- Rear shock (cbr600rr) - I'm quite heavy rider 250, and pretty much every suspension specialist (JPH, Dave Moss, Catalyst Reactions), saying rear spring is too soft. To be honest I'm not sure that's affecting me right now in any way (I'm not that fast). Do you think it's reasonable to touch it now, or wait until I actually start feeling that it holding me back?

- Rear set - people saying having good rearset (not oem) can make a lot of difference regarding body position. I know dragging the knee is not necessary to go fast, but I just don't feel confident in OEM rearset. Foot almost slipped once. Can you suggest good rearset? (I understand it's very personal prefer thing, but would like to hear some feedback)

- Quick shifter + Power commander + gear indicator (optional) - should I bother with it or wait until I get to faster group?

Maybe I should look in different direction, and don't bother with upgrades at all until I'm at least having a consistent time in B group?

Thanks!

 

[shouldnthave]

At 'C' pace, you don't really need to do anything to your bike as long as it's in good working order. What you need at that point is to spend your money on lessons from a rebuttal coach.

However, as you get faster, if you're anything like me, you will beg for a seat you don't slide out of in a turn.

Suspension is the key to everything. Spend money.

You don't need to spend a dime on a QS until you feel it's holding you back, and I promise, it's not what's holding you back right now. Wait till you are on the cusp of A if you must have it.

Only change the rear sets if you feel the position is off for you.

 

[RightCoastBias]

At 250, your spring rate is likely quite far off. A new spring is cheap and easy, I'd suggest doing that.

But, I'm not a track rider. Perhaps my preference and experience on the street doesn't translate to a track environment.

 

[Tally Whacker]

At 'C' pace, you don't really need to do anything to your bike as long as it's in good working order. What you need at that point is to spend your money on lessons from a rebuttal coach.

However, as you get faster, if you're anything like me, you will beg for a seat you don't slide out of in a turn.

Suspension is the key to everything. Spend money.

You don't need to spend a dime on a QS until you feel it's holding you back, and I promise, it's not what's holding you back right now. Wait till you are on the cusp of A if you must have it.

Only change the rear sets if you feel the position is off for you.

Wise words. Spend the money for new springs, spend whatever else you might have budgeted on instruction. And more track days.

 

[2strokeYardSale]

Tires, lessons, track time.

 

[Phanuel]

Tires, lessons, track time.

Add suspension to that. It's just as important as tires. And I'm not talking a full Ohlins or Ktech or what have you. Just refreshed forks and shock with correct springs to your weight. If not adjustable for rebound and compression, then talking to a pro who can change fork oil weight or emulators.

My R3 was actually quite unsettling to ride at the track because it just went everywhere at my weight (220ish) on the stock springs and thin oil and was eating up the tires. Admittedly we did drop a bunch of money into suspension for it and... wow, what a difference.

 

[russ69]

Race tires, a good shock (Ohlins or Penske), fork kit, braided lines, the right gearing, a good tune.

 

[clutchslip]

Hey,

Didn't know where to put these questions regarding upgrades for track days, so I decided put it here
........
- Seat - I find it quite annoying to have your leathers stick to seat when you're trying to switch from one side to another. Do you know any decent seat which will work with stop fairings? Or I have to use baby powder to make it less sticky?

- Rear shock (cbr600rr) - I'm quite heavy rider 250, and pretty much every suspension specialist (JPH, Dave Moss, Catalyst Reactions), saying rear spring is too soft. To be honest I'm not sure that's affecting me right now in any way (I'm not that fast). Do you think it's reasonable to touch it now, or wait until I actually start feeling that it holding me back?

- Rear set - people saying having good rearset (not oem) can make a lot of difference regarding body position. I know dragging the knee is not necessary to go fast, but I just don't feel confident in OEM rearset. Foot almost slipped once. Can you suggest good rearset? (I understand it's very personal prefer thing, but would like to hear some feedback)

- Quick shifter + Power commander + gear indicator (optional) - should I bother with it or wait until I get to faster group?

Maybe I should look in different direction, and don't bother with upgrades at all until I'm at least having a consistent time in B group?

Thanks!

1. Put them in the track day section.
2. I have never had a seat that sticky. Sargent Cycle has a DIY cover that might work for you.
3. At least change the springs front and rear. Your bike is probably sprung for someone 150lbs. As noted, the suspension makes the biggest difference for most people. Spend what you can afford on suspension, first. Ohlins cartridges or race tech stacks can make a big difference.
4. I am a big fan of rear sets for a couple of reasons. If you are over 6 feet, you might feel more comfortable with the foot farther back, but NOT up.
5. QS is a so, so for me. I can shift/accelerate virtually as fast without one.
6. Power commander if you need to smooth out rough spots. The performance difference may not be worth it without other changes. Gear indicator??? You should rarely have time to look at a tach, let alone a gear indicator, if you are going fast. Learn the sound to shift and remember what gear you are in for the track.

 

[stangmx13]

Which CBR600RR?

Suspension, yes. Don't do just springs. Damping too. A stiff underdamped spring is no better than a soft well-damped spring.

Rearsets, maybe. I hate how flexible stock rearsets feel and their position. Who knows w u.

No to the rest.

 

[self_moto]

Which CBR600RR?

Suspension, yes. Don't do just springs. Damping too. A stiff underdamped spring is no better than a soft well-damped spring.

Rearsets, maybe. I hate how flexible stock rearsets feel and their position. Who knows w u.

No to the rest.

2008. Yeah, I going to resprung and revalve rear shock (I think forks okayish, I have a bit of room on preload and damping (dont remember about compression, but I think the same).

 

[self_moto]

1. Put them in the track day section.
2. I have never had a seat that sticky. Sargent Cycle has a DIY cover that might work for you.
3. At least change the springs front and rear. Your bike is probably sprung for someone 150lbs. As noted, the suspension makes the biggest difference for most people. Spend what you can afford on suspension, first. Ohlins cartridges or race tech stacks can make a big difference.
4. I am a big fan of rear sets for a couple of reasons. If you are over 6 feet, you might feel more comfortable with the foot farther back, but NOT up.
5. QS is a so, so for me. I can shift/accelerate virtually as fast without one.
6. Power commander if you need to smooth out rough spots. The performance difference may not be worth it without other changes. Gear indicator??? You should rarely have time to look at a tach, let alone a gear indicator, if you are going fast. Learn the sound to shift and remember what gear you are in for the track.

1. If mods can move it, it would be great! Thanks
4. I think that make sense, I'm 6,3 and I feel a bit uncomfortable sometimes
6. yeah, I'm thinking more about rough spots, or maybe move power to a bit early, not for more hp. Agree on shift indicator, and totally agree I should know which gear I'm in, and most of the time I do, but I, guess street mentality, like tap-tap-tap, just to make sure I'm in 3rd, but instead of tap - quick glance for such moments if that make sense

 

[fubar929]

- Seat - I find it quite annoying to have your leathers stick to seat when you're trying to switch from one side to another. Do you know any decent seat which will work with stop fairings? Or I have to use baby powder to make it less sticky?

- Rear shock (cbr600rr) - I'm quite heavy rider 250, and pretty much every suspension specialist (JPH, Dave Moss, Catalyst Reactions), saying rear spring is too soft. To be honest I'm not sure that's affecting me right now in any way (I'm not that fast). Do you think it's reasonable to touch it now, or wait until I actually start feeling that it holding me back?

- Rear set - people saying having good rearset (not oem) can make a lot of difference regarding body position. I know dragging the knee is not necessary to go fast, but I just don't feel confident in OEM rearset. Foot almost slipped once. Can you suggest good rearset? (I understand it's very personal prefer thing, but would like to hear some feedback)

- Quick shifter + Power commander + gear indicator (optional) - should I bother with it or wait until I get to faster group?

As a novice rider, you should spend your money on three things:

- Tires: you don't need slicks or even DOT race tires, but do make sure you're running a sticky supersport tire; sticky tires are cheap insurance

- Suspension: at the very least, make sure this fork springs and shock spring are appropriate for your weight. If you have money to burn, consider getting the stock forks and shock revalved by someone who knows that they're doing.

- Professional instruction: just riding around the track doesn't automatically make you a better rider. The more you practice bad habits, the more difficult it will be to unlearn them later. Attend some track schools and pester the instructors mercilessly to get the most help possible.

Stuff you absolutely don't need:

- A new seat: a bit of tension in your legs will reduce the amount of weight on the seat and you'll be able to move all over the place
- Rear sets: if you're dragging boots or hard parts, you need to work on body position. If your feet are slipping off the pegs, you need different pegs
- A quick shifter: they're good for a few tenths of a second/lap; you probably need to cut minutes
- More power: you're not effectively using the power you've got now so why add more?

When you get fast enough that you're thinking about moving from C-group into B-group you might want to think about spending money on a few targeted upgrades. Don't just buy everything on this list: think about the problems you actually need to solve to have the confidence to ride faster:

- A slipper clutch; if your bike didn't come with one
- Better brakes (steel-braided lines, different pads, Brembo master cylinder)
- Better suspension (if you haven't already upgraded it)
- A steering damper

The truth is: tires, suspension, and proper instruction will probably do more for your riding than a bunch of random upgrades which are designed to solve problems you're not actually having...

 

[clutchslip]

2008. Yeah, I going to resprung and revalve rear shock (I think forks okayish, I have a bit of room on preload and damping (dont remember about compression, but I think the same).

Changing fluid weight and fluid volume might get you what you need for the moment with correct springs. Don't overlook those options.

 

[ontherearwheel]

I good chair for the pits.......one wide enough to sit in with leathers and helmet on, reclines and has a little table attached. I have a Zero Gravity for a pit chair that does all this and it has been really enjoyed at the track.

Nothing like putting your feet up, taking a nap while being serenaded by bikes on track.

Upgrades.......suspension is always first.

Second is fitting the bike to you so that your are comfy on it. Rear sets, different bars, different seat or whatever. Even the big boys meaning MotoGP, Moto America, and WSB make changes to better fit the bike to the rider. During the race at Sears last weekend, it was reported Hayes made changes to his seat in order to move around more on it.

Third is you......how fit are you? What do you do off track to help you on track? Any visualization time? That's time just sitting in a chair visualizing,as close to real as you can, you going around the track in your mind.

QS........well since I just got one last year after so many years of not having one......I love it. Why......having not to use the clutch to upshift is one less action I don't have to do......time to shift, just move the foot........and no need to do anything with the throttle hand......just stay on the gas. When I first was using it, I thought something was wrong cause the up shifts were jerky, not smooth like I expected........until I realized I still was moving my throttle hand as I had done for years while up shifting. Stopped doing that, shifts smooth as silk.

Tires..............personal preference.

Brakes............don't forget the brake system.

Gearing..........change only if needed.

Mostly though.........remember, it's a track day, meaning there really is no need to go overboard on upgrades......cept for the chair and suspension. I tracked my Seca and the upgrades on it that make it a really nice track bike were suspension and brakes. Did those two things and had a hoot on it. Wasn't the fastest in the group, but I sure as hell wasn't the slowest. You get a big grin passing a BMW 1000r out of a turn or being passed on the straight at Thill only to go around them in turn 1.....on a Seca 2.

 

[stangmx13]

2008. Yeah, I going to resprung and revalve rear shock (I think forks okayish, I have a bit of room on preload and damping (dont remember about compression, but I think the same).

IMO, the fork springrate is further from ideal than the shock springrate. but i like running the shock spring a bit soft, so its prob just me. going too stiff on the shock on that bike introduces a whole new set of problems, so make sure u use a reputable tuner.

once u start braking harder, ull likely start bottoming the front end. the front OEM damping is also shit for the track and it cant be fixed without a re-valve. feel free to do just the shock now. but ull want to do the forks sooner than later.

 

[Junkie]

Regarding rear shock, look around and see if you can find a used Penske for a decent price. I'd rather do that than put money into the stock shock. Of course, you'll likely have to have it resprung too.

Forks, at a minimum have them resprung. There's a good chance the valving is adequate.

You can likely buy footpegs that're grippier than stock if you're happy enough with the current position. Most aftermarket rearsets don't include a mount for a brake light switch - I don't care because I never use rear brake alone, but some people do care.

Tires, a spare set of wheels with track tires would be nice but if not, a set of modern supersport tires would be adequate.

 

[Junkie]

IMO, the fork springrate is further from ideal than the shock springrate. but i like running the shock spring a bit soft, so its prob just me. going too stiff on the shock on that bike introduces a whole new set of problems, so make sure u use a reputable tuner.

once u start braking harder, ull likely start bottoming the front end. the front OEM damping is also shit for the track and it cant be fixed without a re-valve. feel free to do just the shock now. but ull want to do the forks sooner than later.

Racetech suggests (for road racing, so probably a little stiffer than ideal for a new track rider) 1.08 fork springs vs 1.0 stock, and 11.4 shock spring vs 11.0 stock. For street they recommend 1.03/11.2.

I'm a little surprised that he's being told that the rear shock spring is that wrong - Racetech fork springs come in .05 increments (so he's off about one increment), and shock springs seem to be about 0.9 increments, so he's off less than one increment. I guess Racetech must have bad info if multiple reputable tuners have said that.

 

[ExtrF4i]

OP-

fubar929 (post #12) said all you need......great advice.

Just adding my $0.02 to back up what fubar929 said. My trackbike was a CBR600F4i. Be sure you have a good set of track tires. My favorites were the Dunlop Sportsmax GP-A. There are a lot of good choices out there and you will get a ton of opinions on which is "best". Talk to Dave Moss. If you can, keep that pair dedicated for the track and use a different set for the street. Race tires are very soft and you will wear them out quickly on the street and they will harden and lose a little of their "stickyness" with more use and abuse.

Next, definitely get your suspension done (spring and valving). Don't get the spring done by itself. The internal valving of your fork/shock will probably not work properly after going to a heavy enough spring and will no longer provide enough rebound dampening so your compressed fork/shock will bounce back up too quickly -- not good. Again, talk to a trusted tuner like Dave Moss. I had my forks re-sprung and re-valved; however, I spent the money on the rear shock and installed an Ohlins on the advice of the tuners. The opinion of the stock shock was that there was not enough adjustability to make re-valving worthwile.

Getting your suspension sorted will make the biggest improvement of all -- at any skill level or pace. Keeping fresh tires on your bike will keep the rubber side down and help prevent crashes.

I did really like the change in the way my brakes felt after changing the lines from stock to stainless on my F4i. The SS hoses don't flex/expand as much as stock so the brakes are much more firm and responsive. Make that third on the list. I kept stock brake pads as some of the pads that are trackday oriented do not work as well cold as they do once warmed up and the stock pads still worked well for me at the A pace.

 

[stangmx13]

Racetech suggests (for road racing, so probably a little stiffer than ideal for a new track rider) 1.08 fork springs vs 1.0 stock, and 11.4 shock spring vs 11.0 stock. For street they recommend 1.03/11.2.

I'm a little surprised that he's being told that the rear shock spring is that wrong - Racetech fork springs come in .05 increments (so he's off about one increment), and shock springs seem to be about 0.9 increments, so he's off less than one increment. I guess Racetech must have bad info if multiple reputable tuners have said that.

and IMO, Racetech goes the wrong way too. their recommendations are too light for forks and too stiff for the shock, which would probably make for a very imbalanced bike. they say i should be using .85 fork springs for road racing - what a joke

 

[Killin_ix]

I was in the same position when I started doing trackdays a few years back. Same bike too!

The 600RR can do wonders stock. But aligning with what others have said, suspension is the first thing I would invest in. It will do wonders with cornering confidence. Next would be tires.

Everything else is extra IMHO. Be sure to save money for track time.. cause THAT'S where all your money will go.