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Traction control

Phanuel said:
I'm currently only engaging TC down the straights as the bike prevent wheelies. This is telling me I'm leaving a ton on the table in my exits after a smooth roll on. If I didn't have TC, I'd just be lofting the front a bit more but I wouldn't have much of a gauge for how hard I could continue to get on the throttle out of an exit.

How do I get better? Spin the rear up and... [insert mild to dire consequence here]? I've already got issues determining my lean angle consistency from lap to lap (not to mention no clue of what my grip level is at all).
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how so? why do u think that?
 
there could be any number of causes for that, as I'm sure u already know.

IMO a good exit is "direction", "when you roll on", and "how hard you roll on" in order of most important to least important. most times I pass bigger bikes up the inside on exit, its because I had more direction. my bike is pointing toward the exit a lot sooner, so I accelerate sooner and harder.

spinning the rear tire shows your limit of drive traction and its not ez to learn how to spin it. u are going to have to push your limit. u just want to do so safely. absolutely make sure that uve already "finished" the corner before accelerating. absolutely make sure that u can and will subtract lean angle BEFORE accelerating. when u are sure of that, go to WOT in the same smooth but quick manner, just a tiny bit sooner. if u find yourself running wide, u went too soon. if the tire slides, u didnt subtract lean angle. but if u really did it just a tiny bit sooner, ull eventually creep up on that nice smooth tire spin.

ideally, u want ~10% wheelspin for maximum drive. but thats pipe dream stuff. u can win Expert races without any wheelspin if everything else is on point. but u probably still want to know where that limit is to remove all this doubt about drives. plus, this "upper limit" of drives is useful when working on mid-corner and braking.
 
stangmx13 said:
u can win Expert races without any wheelspin if everything else is on point.
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On a 600 at a slower pace, it's possible, to slow down after a gap has been built..but frankly, it's easier to just leave the thing on it's side and hammer the throttle and spin and just be lazy about doing anything on the exit. Plus, it's more fun...only if you've got a big enough lead tho! After a few laps, the thing's spinning in a few specific corners in a fast race, too. YMMV.
 
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we are about the same pace around BW and my laps feel nothing like that :laughing.

I have a really hard time spinning Dunlop's latest 600 tire when it has <10 laps on it. And its not for lack of trying.
 
stangmx13 said:
we are about the same pace around BW and my laps feel nothing like that :laughing.

I have a really hard time spinning Dunlop's latest 600 tire when it has <10 laps on it. And its not for lack of trying.
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Robert...you'd really do well to come race with us. I don't know why you don't...
Towards the end of round 2, I did get up to a better pace. I have to admit, taking 3 years off to manage things at the event(s) had me concerned about if I could turn fast laps or not.

Sonoma was a 2 second delta (41.9 / 43.9) between us. I don't say "Come race with us" to pimp, but rather to try and get you more quality track time for the dollar...

Bring those D-lops and let's go send it!
 
I was at Buttonwillow yesterday. it was pretty wet. I put Road 5s on my 2012 CBR1000RR. No traction control.

I had some nice controllable rear wheel slides here and there. And a bit of a lairy slide with both wheels while exiting the esses.


Genuine question: with both wheels sliding, I'm guessing 2 possibilities:

Traction control might be confused (I'm guessing unsophisticated systems) and do nothing or cut power to the rear wheel, which would ... ? Risk causing a lowside on the front? ?

Modern fancy-pants lean-angle sensitive systems would? What? I Really don't know.
 
Holeshot said:
Robert...you'd really do well to come race with us. I don't know why you don't...
Towards the end of round 2, I did get up to a better pace. I have to admit, taking 3 years off to manage things at the event(s) had me concerned about if I could turn fast laps or not.

Sonoma was a 2 second delta (41.9 / 43.9) between us. I don't say "Come race with us" to pimp, but rather to try and get you more quality track time for the dollar...

Bring those D-lops and let's go send it!
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Is there a specific outfit you normally ride with?
 
stangmx13 said:
we are about the same pace around BW and my laps feel nothing like that :laughing.

I have a really hard time spinning Dunlop's latest 600 tire when it has <10 laps on it. And its not for lack of trying.
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I notice all your bikes are 600's. Have you rode liter bikes and just preferred 600s or never wanted to move up?
 
Aware said:
I was at Buttonwillow yesterday. it was pretty wet. I put Road 5s on my 2012 CBR1000RR. No traction control.

I had some nice controllable rear wheel slides here and there. And a bit of a lairy slide with both wheels while exiting the esses.


Genuine question: with both wheels sliding, I'm guessing 2 possibilities:

Traction control might be confused (I'm guessing unsophisticated systems) and do nothing or cut power to the rear wheel, which would ... ? Risk causing a lowside on the front? ?

Modern fancy-pants lean-angle sensitive systems would? What? I Really don't know.
Click to expand...

Did you have an opportunity to use the rear brake with the throttle on corner exit? Why or why not?
 
Holeshot said:
Robert...you'd really do well to come race with us. I don't know why you don't...
Towards the end of round 2, I did get up to a better pace. I have to admit, taking 3 years off to manage things at the event(s) had me concerned about if I could turn fast laps or not.

Sonoma was a 2 second delta (41.9 / 43.9) between us. I don't say "Come race with us" to pimp, but rather to try and get you more quality track time for the dollar...

Bring those D-lops and let's go send it!
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I’ll be at both BW rounds assuming I didn’t pop a head gasket on Sat.

41 low is already my goal for Sonoma this year :D
 
jacob11379 said:
I notice all your bikes are 600's. Have you rode liter bikes and just preferred 600s or never wanted to move up?
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I’ve ridden friends literbikes a few times. Racing a 600 is already hard enough and not anything I feel like I’ve mastered. So I don’t feel any need to make it harder with more power. Plus the 600 grids are generally larger where I race.
 
Enchanter said:
Not surprised.
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Why be a dick? What did you expect me to say? You could have tried to answer my question, or just say nothing. But instead you try to prod me and huff when I don’t take your bait.

Grow up.
 
Aware said:
Genuine question: with both wheels sliding, I'm guessing 2 possibilities:

Traction control might be confused (I'm guessing unsophisticated systems) and do nothing or cut power to the rear wheel, which would ... ? Risk causing a lowside on the front? ?

Modern fancy-pants lean-angle sensitive systems would? What? I Really don't know.
Click to expand...

It's not likely that traction control would be confused in that situation. While they're not all the same, they typically monitor the speed of both wheels and if the rear wheel is spinning faster than the front, you're not on the brakes and are on the gas, it will reduce output either via fuel or ignition until the wheel speeds match.

If you're sliding both ends and are on the gas, the rear tire will be spinning faster than the front, which if anything will turn more slowly in a slide. It's important to recognize that traction control will assist with situations where the throttle is open too much for available grip, but will not be of any use if the rider enters a corner at too high a lean angle for available traction.
 
tzrider said:
It's not likely that traction control would be confused in that situation. While they're not all the same, they typically monitor the speed of both wheels and if the rear wheel is spinning faster than the front, you're not on the brakes and are on the gas, it will reduce output either via fuel or ignition until the wheel speeds match.

If you're sliding both ends and are on the gas, the rear tire will be spinning faster than the front, which if anything will turn more slowly in a slide. It's important to recognize that traction control will assist with situations where the throttle is open too much for available grip, but will not be of any use if the rider enters a corner at too high a lean angle for available traction.
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This was on exit, if that makes any difference at all to your thoughts.

As I learned yesterday (maybe you already know), the esses at Buttonwillow are flat and they flood when it rains. There was a film of standing water after the apex of the final curve and I hit it while on power, before I was fully upright. My question was based on my thinking that front and rear are sliding and wondering how an apparently synchronized slide would change with a reduction of power on the rear, wondering if while the rear gains traction, does this also remove load from the front and improve traction, or somehow does the front react negatively.

Since I have literally never used traction control (well my CB1000R has it, but it has never intervened) I have no grasp of how it reacts to such a slide. In fact I’ve only ever had slides like that on track and in the wet.

Aside: the Road 5s gave very predictable slides. They continue to impress me.
 
Not reading right ... you really did comment about power on thus corner exit. Oops
 
Aware said:
It's a long established technique to help load the rear suspension and gain greater control all round. Many of us have done this since last century. I've never encountered any disaster or near disaster doing it. What are you picturing might happen?
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Aware said:
Why be a dick? What did you expect me to say? You could have tried to answer my question, or just say nothing. But instead you try to prod me and huff when I don’t take your bait.

Grow up.
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Your first reply to me was pretty condescending. I reply / respond to you, you remain silent, and tell me to grow up?

Enchanter said:
Loss of traction and a crash due to managing 2 traction users at the same time, on a track, on the exit of the turn with less compliant suspension due to the engine attempting to extend the rear suspension while the rear brake attempts to limit that extension.

What is your / the technique doing to the suspension, and how is it providing "greater control all around"?
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Previously I asked you to explain your reasoning and you chose not to. I tried again and got the same result. Asking you to explain your support of using the throttle and rear brake on the track is baiting?

We have one individual in this thread that uses the rear brake with the throttle on the track at the exit of the turn. I still don’t think that’s smart. Dragging the rear brake can be useful when making slow speed maneuvers but I seriously question its use here. Your post appears to support using this ‘technique’ on the track. Is that correct?
 
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