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Traction control

Holeshot said:
Robert...you'd really do well to come race with us. I don't know why you don't...
Towards the end of round 2, I did get up to a better pace. I have to admit, taking 3 years off to manage things at the event(s) had me concerned about if I could turn fast laps or not.

Sonoma was a 2 second delta (41.9 / 43.9) between us. I don't say "Come race with us" to pimp, but rather to try and get you more quality track time for the dollar...

Bring those D-lops and let's go send it!
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I’ll be at both BW rounds assuming I didn’t pop a head gasket on Sat.

41 low is already my goal for Sonoma this year :D
 
jacob11379 said:
I notice all your bikes are 600's. Have you rode liter bikes and just preferred 600s or never wanted to move up?
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I’ve ridden friends literbikes a few times. Racing a 600 is already hard enough and not anything I feel like I’ve mastered. So I don’t feel any need to make it harder with more power. Plus the 600 grids are generally larger where I race.
 
Enchanter said:
Not surprised.
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Why be a dick? What did you expect me to say? You could have tried to answer my question, or just say nothing. But instead you try to prod me and huff when I don’t take your bait.

Grow up.
 
Aware said:
Genuine question: with both wheels sliding, I'm guessing 2 possibilities:

Traction control might be confused (I'm guessing unsophisticated systems) and do nothing or cut power to the rear wheel, which would ... ? Risk causing a lowside on the front? ?

Modern fancy-pants lean-angle sensitive systems would? What? I Really don't know.
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It's not likely that traction control would be confused in that situation. While they're not all the same, they typically monitor the speed of both wheels and if the rear wheel is spinning faster than the front, you're not on the brakes and are on the gas, it will reduce output either via fuel or ignition until the wheel speeds match.

If you're sliding both ends and are on the gas, the rear tire will be spinning faster than the front, which if anything will turn more slowly in a slide. It's important to recognize that traction control will assist with situations where the throttle is open too much for available grip, but will not be of any use if the rider enters a corner at too high a lean angle for available traction.
 
tzrider said:
It's not likely that traction control would be confused in that situation. While they're not all the same, they typically monitor the speed of both wheels and if the rear wheel is spinning faster than the front, you're not on the brakes and are on the gas, it will reduce output either via fuel or ignition until the wheel speeds match.

If you're sliding both ends and are on the gas, the rear tire will be spinning faster than the front, which if anything will turn more slowly in a slide. It's important to recognize that traction control will assist with situations where the throttle is open too much for available grip, but will not be of any use if the rider enters a corner at too high a lean angle for available traction.
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This was on exit, if that makes any difference at all to your thoughts.

As I learned yesterday (maybe you already know), the esses at Buttonwillow are flat and they flood when it rains. There was a film of standing water after the apex of the final curve and I hit it while on power, before I was fully upright. My question was based on my thinking that front and rear are sliding and wondering how an apparently synchronized slide would change with a reduction of power on the rear, wondering if while the rear gains traction, does this also remove load from the front and improve traction, or somehow does the front react negatively.

Since I have literally never used traction control (well my CB1000R has it, but it has never intervened) I have no grasp of how it reacts to such a slide. In fact I’ve only ever had slides like that on track and in the wet.

Aside: the Road 5s gave very predictable slides. They continue to impress me.
 
Not reading right ... you really did comment about power on thus corner exit. Oops
 
Aware said:
It's a long established technique to help load the rear suspension and gain greater control all round. Many of us have done this since last century. I've never encountered any disaster or near disaster doing it. What are you picturing might happen?
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Aware said:
Why be a dick? What did you expect me to say? You could have tried to answer my question, or just say nothing. But instead you try to prod me and huff when I don’t take your bait.

Grow up.
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Your first reply to me was pretty condescending. I reply / respond to you, you remain silent, and tell me to grow up?

Enchanter said:
Loss of traction and a crash due to managing 2 traction users at the same time, on a track, on the exit of the turn with less compliant suspension due to the engine attempting to extend the rear suspension while the rear brake attempts to limit that extension.

What is your / the technique doing to the suspension, and how is it providing "greater control all around"?
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Previously I asked you to explain your reasoning and you chose not to. I tried again and got the same result. Asking you to explain your support of using the throttle and rear brake on the track is baiting?

We have one individual in this thread that uses the rear brake with the throttle on the track at the exit of the turn. I still don’t think that’s smart. Dragging the rear brake can be useful when making slow speed maneuvers but I seriously question its use here. Your post appears to support using this ‘technique’ on the track. Is that correct?
 
Aware said:
you already know), the esses at Buttonwillow are flat and they flood when it rains. There was a film of standing water after the apex of the final curve and I hit it while on power, before I was fully upright. My question was based on my thinking that front and rear are sliding and wondering how an apparently synchronized slide would change with a reduction of power on the rear, wondering if while the rear gains traction, does this also remove load from the front and improve traction, or somehow does the front react negatively.
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2 things come to mind:

1. The final corner in the esses is a really bad place to crash, especially when it's muddy. If it was truly rainy, I'd encourage not fucking around there. I'll leave the details of why out. They're bad.

2. To answer your question on loss of grip/ slides: the wheel WITH grip is in control and leads the way. A sliding front with a gripped up rear will turn into a lowside. A sliding rear with a gripped up front may turn into a loss of the rear/ lowside as well. However, if the rear gains traction suddenly, usually this is what results in a high-side and spectacular sky pilot shit.

When riders spin the rear and chop the throttle, it's flight time for them, many times. All that spinning energy has to go somewhere when things grip up...a front gripping up at lean angle can do kinda the same thing: pitching the bike upright somewhat and then, it's up to fate. A lot of these riders pile too...
 
Holeshot said:
2 things come to mind:

1. The final corner in the esses is a really bad place to crash, especially when it's muddy. If it was truly rainy, I'd encourage not fucking around there. I'll leave the details of why out. They're bad.

2. To answer your question on loss of grip/ slides: the wheel WITH grip is in control and leads the way. A sliding front with a gripped up rear will turn into a lowside. A sliding rear with a gripped up front may turn into a loss of the rear/ lowside as well. However, if the rear gains traction suddenly, usually this is what results in a high-side and spectacular sky pilot shit.

When riders spin the rear and chop the throttle, it's flight time for them, many times. All that spinning energy has to go somewhere when things grip up...a front gripping up at lean angle can do kinda the same thing: pitching the bike upright somewhat and then, it's up to fate. A lot of these riders pile too...
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Thanks - 2 is where my speculation was leaning. I have little doubt that traction control can help tame a powerful bike, but like many I have a reluctance to allow the bike to try to take control.

By the way we were well warned about the esses (aka The Swamp) at the start of the day. It was fun and challenging to navigate them in the wet. I think only one rider had the misfortune to fail to get all the way through the esses.
 
Enchanter said:
Are you really rolling on the throttle and using the rear brake simultaneously? That sounds like a recipe for disaster.
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Its not as if i'm standing on the rear brake while throttling out. I have a thumb brake which can't lock the rear. So on exits or situations where i find i need a little extra stability i'll apply some rear brake to help give myself some comfort and buffer when i feel like i might been too aggressive with my roll on. You can say its bad technique but it works for me and i've gotten considerably faster (2:00 to 1:56) since i started using the rear brake more often (like, 200% more often). It is especially useful in situations like cresting the hill after T9. That said the majority of my rear brake usage is on corner entry which is not particularly relevant to the conversation.

Enchanter said:
Your first reply to me was pretty condescending. I reply / respond to you, you remain silent, and tell me to grow up?



Previously I asked you to explain your reasoning and you chose not to. I tried again and got the same result. Asking you to explain your support of using the throttle and rear brake on the track is baiting?

We have one individual in this thread that uses the rear brake with the throttle on the track at the exit of the turn. I still don’t think that’s smart. Dragging the rear brake can be useful when making slow speed maneuvers but I seriously question its use here. Your post appears to support using this ‘technique’ on the track. Is that correct?
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Sorry that my drive by thread-posting stirred up shit, just sharing what *I* do to ride comfortably at my pace.

Some pre-TC Formula Pacific fast guys have talked to me about using the rear brake on exit to control wheelspin. I may not be 100% applying or interpreting the technique correctly but i have found it useful in getting faster as it is.
 
Do you have reduced engine braking? If so, can you increase back to stock levels? For corner entry purposes...

As your competitor I prefer you to have more to deal with, so please keep your thumb brake and reduced engine braking :kiss
 
jaybocc2 said:
Sorry that my drive by thread-posting stirred up shit, just sharing what *I* do to ride comfortably at my pace.

Some pre-TC Formula Pacific fast guys have talked to me about using the rear brake on exit to control wheelspin. I may not be 100% applying or interpreting the technique correctly but i have found it useful in getting faster as it is.
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Stirring the pot is what BARF is all about. That’s not a bad thing in this case. I was hoping for a discussion expanding on the technique, but for some reason(s), that’s not happening here.

Let’s try again:
Are you experiencing wheel-spin on the exits? Are you using the rear brake to control it? That isn’t clear from your previous posts.
 
Phanuel said:
I don't understand why using the rear brake to control wheelies and power delivery is so controversial.
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the rear brake is always controversial for no good reason. IMO, some ppl understand how the tool can be used and chose to do so or not. some ppl don't and make a huge fuss about it.
 
Controlling wheelies: check.
Controlling wheel-spin: check.

Using it to prevent TC from engaging seems weird to me, I stated as much, and I’m not getting much in further discussion in that regard.

I just reread the thread, and discovered that I confused the OP with the poster that uses it to prevent TC engaging. That definitely contributed to some of my confusion.

Controversial? Yeah, I’d agree. I’m attempting to gain understanding of the process/ technique. I apologize if I came across opposite of that.

To be clear, I’m a rear brake proponent on the street and use it almost 99% of the time. On the track I use it when I have the bandwidth to do so. Sometimes I can’t use it effectively so I stop while working on other bits of info and skill. Once I’ve gotten better at those, I try to bring the rear brake into the equation again.
 
Phanuel said:
He's on a 600, so 95% of his usage in corner entry, but he definitely uses it over the crest of T9 at 1:25 when the bike can actually power wheelie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgRw9yY3TR0

I don't understand why using the rear brake to control wheelies and power delivery is so controversial.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBKR2apAl7I&feature=youtu.be&t=660
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In the first video I didn’t see rearbrake on the exits. Not really past the apex either. In the higher speed / longer turns like T2, T7 and T8, but it was applied prior to the apex’s. I fully understand it’s use in those turns in that location. Interesting that cars use it there too.

In the 2nd vid, I heard Guy mention it, but I suspect that his use at the IOM is not to prevent TC engagement.
 
Enchanter said:
Controlling wheel-spin: check.

Using it to prevent TC from engaging seems weird to me, I stated as much, and I’m not getting much in further discussion in that regard.
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these 2 things are the same thing. so no need to be confused on the latter.
 
Smash Allen said:
Do you have reduced engine braking? If so, can you increase back to stock levels? For corner entry purposes...

As your competitor I prefer you to have more to deal with, so please keep your thumb brake and reduced engine braking :kiss
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I have it where i like it, or at least where i'm comfortable. TBH I just ride the bike. Unless its doing something i don't like, i adjust to ride the bike. There is so much i can do to be a better rider that i refuse to blame the bike unless its outright doing bad/scary shit or preventing me from going faster which my crew chief and coaches are good at pointing out.

Enchanter said:
Stirring the pot is what BARF is all about. That’s not a bad thing in this case. I was hoping for a discussion expanding on the technique, but for some reason(s), that’s not happening here.

Let’s try again:
Are you experiencing wheel-spin on the exits? Are you using the rear brake to control it? That isn’t clear from your previous posts.
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In certain turns i do encounter some wheel spin on exit. Some turns its very acceptable amount and very controlled. In other turns it is less than desirable (for me) and i like to have a little more control over it which the thumb brake gives me.

Enchanter said:
Controlling wheelies: check.
Controlling wheel-spin: check.

Using it to prevent TC from engaging seems weird to me, I stated as much, and I’m not getting much in further discussion in that regard.

I just reread the thread, and discovered that I confused the OP with the poster that uses it to prevent TC engaging. That definitely contributed to some of my confusion.

Controversial? Yeah, I’d agree. I’m attempting to gain understanding of the process/ technique. I apologize if I came across opposite of that.

To be clear, I’m a rear brake proponent on the street and use it almost 99% of the time. On the track I use it when I have the bandwidth to do so. Sometimes I can’t use it effectively so I stop while working on other bits of info and skill. Once I’ve gotten better at those, I try to bring the rear brake into the equation again.
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Using the rear brake a lot more is something i attribute to making me a faster rider.

90% of my rear brake use is on entry. Perhaps its a bit of a placebo, and i think as i get faster and more precise i may use it even less if at all. But it is a great safety net to have for when you do need it.
 
I think it's controversial in the track world because the average track rider and even club racer has a difficult time applying it properly. I used it for a bit when I first started track riding due to my motocross background. It bit me, I ended up locking it up, and collecting someone. I stopped for 2 or 3 years and am starting ease back into it now. Higher-powered bike at a much faster pace has proved its use beneficial to me, but I'm sure there are plenty of folks going faster without its use. Different strokes...
 
stangmx13 said:
the rear brake is always controversial for no good reason. IMO, some ppl understand how the tool can be used and chose to do so or not. some ppl don't and make a huge fuss about it.
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Well, what else are people gonna noodle out about on BARF? To each's own...As riders go through their epochs, they may use/ discontinue/ use the rear brake. Just don't Skadooski me and I'm good!

FourThreeSix said:
I think it's controversial in the track world because the average track rider and even club racer has a difficult time applying it properly. I used it for a bit when I first started track riding due to my motocross background. It bit me, I ended up locking it up, and collecting someone. I stopped for 2 or 3 years and am starting ease back into it now. Higher-powered bike at a much faster pace has proved its use beneficial to me, but I'm sure there are plenty of folks going faster without its use. Different strokes...
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That thing is my "off road" brake, if ever needed. That and the "Oh fuck...I'm gonna run into the back of this guy"..and then you're all over it like bird shit on a hot black car.
 
Would a bike pass tech without the rear brake lever? Asking for a friend...
 
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