Traction control

[Holeshot]

Except that one time I heard Berto passing me on the outside of t5 and I went to power before I had finished turning and luckily failed the attempted Moon launch and finished the race
albiet behind berto

F40? I think I remember that one...good save! The throttle pump comes right as you come down the hill then..you were just trying to beat me to 6 and my determination was to put me ahead and Rue behind ya!

Loss of traction and a crash due to managing 2 traction users at the same time, on a track, on the exit of the turn with less compliant suspension due to the engine attempting to extend the rear suspension while the rear brake attempts to limit that extension.

Holy lord, right? Forum can make a fairly simple thing such as riding a bike a completely incapable feat due to all the unnecessary things people think are effective. The only time I can see the rear brake being used while on throttle is places like coming over T9 Thill or T3A Sonoma....maybe?

 

[tzrider]

the rear braking reducing anti-squat won't make it harder for the suspension to compress - it'd make it easier. however, im not sure that the rear brake on corner exit does actually produce a force opposite of anti-squat. it seems like it would reduce the torque caused by force at the contact patch. but it wouldnt reduce a torque caused by chain pull.

Pretty much this. Said another way:

When braking with the rear, the resistance at the contact patch is applying a rearward force on the contact patch, which tries to rotate the rear tire forward against the brake. This force transfers torque to the swingarm, forcing the swingarm pivot downward.

When accelerating, the tire is trying to drive forward, while the ground offers resistance, applying a frontward force on the contact patch. This transfers torque to the swingarm, forcing the swingarm pivot upward (no matter what kind of drive is in use, e.g., chain, belt, shaft or even an electric motor in the hub).

If you work the throttle against the rear brake, the suspension behavior will be dictated by whichever force is greater, acceleration or deceleration. If the throttle wins, the rear suspension extends, if the brake wins, the rear squats.

Working the brake against the gas is a substitute for poor throttle control, IMO. The most credible application I've heard is to drag the brakes when transitioning from off throttle to on, in an attempt to mute the little surge you can get if the driveline slack is taken up too abruptly. I still place this in the category of mitigating the effect of poor throttle control.

 

[Aware]

Maybe y'all should try it instead of guessing. And then consider it to be one of the many many tools and techniques that we could all use, but don't have to.

I mean, so many riders shun any and all use of the rear brake, and they do fine. So many other riders use the rear brake in all kinds of ways and they also do fine.

 

[Honey Badger]

In response to the OP's question regarding TC (as opposed to rear brake use)....

Until my current two sport bikes, my bikes were all "stupid" with no "rider aids" equipped.

There are definite advantages to TC, and those who learn to trust the electronics can definitely benefit from putting them to use. It's still not something I tend to trust, but I've still kicked it in a couple times and know that it CAN work. Saved me from a likely high side once at THill when I got a little throttle happy coming through 12/13 at Thill once. Had it help on the street on a super slick road when I goosed some cold tires a bit more than they were ready for pulling away from a stop light.

It can definitely be an advantage on the modern bikes, especially on the liter bikes where the power starts to get a little silly (but fun ).

 

[jacob11379]

I have to admit I expecting to hear more feedback on situations where it hindered or helped the rider.

Being that many of you likely ride frequently, particularly those that ride track and race, and would be in a position to push the bike beyond its traction or your skill and have the TC kick in.

its rather interesting to only have a few situations at most per rider.

But I guess my only understanding of TC is via a car, and a car one can drive much more aggressive and forgiving than a bike. It wouldn't be unusual for my TC to kick in ten times a day when im driving a more aggressive car.

I also TRUST the TC in the car, purposely go through the levels and drive in safe areas so I understand it. Much harder to do that on two wheels...

Spent the last couple hours reading and watching vids on motorcycle TC. Lots of different techniques on the market, some much more advanced than others. But for the most part practically everything I have seen mentions lots of different ways to monitor and control ONLY rear wheel tire spin. Throttle Control, RPM, ABS/Wheel sensors.....

I havent seen front tire monitoring, other than ABS which isnt likely to help if the front tire washes.....

I did find a video, I think it is for one specific bike, and it takes some real patience to listen to the guy speak paticually because i had to watch it twice to completely understand.....Its the best description I could find with the few hours of free time I had

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XyyQI-jbeo

Does anybody have any information on front wheel slip and how TC might work? or most likely not work

 

[Smash Allen]

The front wheel doesn’t drive... lean angle sensitive abs is a fairly new entry to market from Bosche and that’s the closest you will get to front end traction control... basically it lets off the brakes on front end lock up or limits pressure to front when leaned over... this just slows you down on track as you are not yet able to tune it to the grip levels provided by slicks

 

[Aware]

Front wheel is not powered. If it slips, adding brake makes it slip more. Therefore there is no front wheel traction control...

... however there is active suspension that potentially can improve traction, but i don't think it can help much in a slide.

 

[Smash Allen]

Front wheel is not powered. If it slips, adding brake makes it slip more. Therefore there is no front wheel traction control...

... however there is active suspension that potentially can improve traction, but i don't think it can help much in a slide.

Right, so the abs works only under deceleration when it can reduce the braking force via abs pump

For acceleration, it can sense the front slowing down and it cuts power, but this just slows you down because the front lifts up on corner exits and acts the same as if the front is tucking

 

[jacob11379]

Well that would make a lot of sense why its not that great or trustworthy. Still nice to have as an option and ill probably play with it.

I do atleast like the anti wheelie part of it while figuring out a track. Ive noticed Sonoma has a nice little section there that if hit hard in 2nd I bet the front comes up easy. I scared the crap out of myself on T-hill west once coming down the straight pinned, there a nice rise that took the front end up way higher than I wanted....

 

[jacob11379]

Well that would make a lot of sense why its not that great or trustworthy. Still nice to have as an option and ill probably play with it.

I do atleast like the anti wheelie part of it while figuring out a track. Ive noticed Sonoma has a nice little section there that if hit hard in 2nd I bet the front comes up easy. I scared the crap out of myself on T-hill west once coming down the straight pinned, there a nice rise that took the front end up way higher than I wanted....

Correction, its buttonwillow that has that section of track great for lifting front end.

 

[Holeshot]

The front wheel doesn’t drive... lean angle sensitive abs is a fairly new entry to market from Bosche and that’s the closest you will get to front end traction control... basically it lets off the brakes on front end lock up or limits pressure to front when leaned over... this just slows you down on track as you are not yet able to tune it to the grip levels provided by slicks

First it compares rear wheel/ front wheel speeds and then determines it needs to release front brake pressure. The problem arises when the rear wheel loses contact with the tarmac and loses wheel speed...then the system releases the lever. It's not fun, as you know. At least BMW lets you turn the ABS off electronically, lest you pile into the back someone. Wish Yamaha had thought of that..

Correction, its buttonwillow that has that section of track great for lifting front end.

FYI: not all TC is created equal. Iirc, you have Kawi KRT stuff from 2012 era which is rate-of-change TC..essentially predictive and engine management. No wheels sensors, etc, just RPM change stuff.

Real TC has front/ rear wheel sensors and compares the speeds of each. The best stuff is the most modern (2018 vintage) 5 axis/ multi axis IMU stuff as Chris described. It's in a class of its own, but it also teaches riders bad riding habits by masking their faults and making them believe they are not faults.

 

[jacob11379]

First it compares rear wheel/ front wheel speeds and then determines it needs to release front brake pressure. The problem arises when the rear wheel loses contact with the tarmac and loses wheel speed...then the system releases the lever. It's not fun, as you know. At least BMW lets you turn the ABS off electronically, lest you pile into the back someone. Wish Yamaha had thought of that..



FYI: not all TC is created equal. Iirc, you have Kawi KRT stuff from 2012 era which is rate-of-change TC..essentially predictive and engine management. No wheels sensors, etc, just RPM change stuff.

Real TC has front/ rear wheel sensors and compares the speeds of each. The best stuff is the most modern (2018 vintage) 5 axis/ multi axis IMU stuff as Chris described. It's in a class of its own, but it also teaches riders bad riding habits by masking their faults and making them believe they are not faults.

I was doing some reading on the IMU stuff today, nice set up....

I also spent about an hour watching 2013ish KTRC videos from a bunch of yoyo's playing with it. While yes it might help with rear wheel low/high side I feel the best and practical use for me will simply be that i can pin the throttle once the bike is upright without fear of wheelie and if the rear tire spins TC will kick in. If I decided to ride in the rain it would be nice for acceleration.

But after spending a couple days looking into it its not as nice a feature i initially thought and the research has helped me understand why and what I can expect out of it.

 

[Holeshot]

On track: rear tire preservation...but you’d need a kit box to dial the KRT stuff in. Upgrade the bike instead. The 16+ 10R’s are amaze...

 

[jacob11379]

On track: rear tire preservation...but you’d need a kit box to dial the KRT stuff in. Upgrade the bike instead. The 16+ 10R’s are amaze...

Im not good enough to warrant that nice of a bike just yet!....Maybe if I can considerably reduce my lap times over the next year or three....

 

[Phanuel]

The best stuff is the most modern (2018 vintage) 5 axis/ multi axis IMU stuff as Chris described. It's in a class of its own, but it also teaches riders bad riding habits by masking their faults and making them believe they are not faults.

That last bit though, modern bikes are so fast on the track because of the TC managing 190+hp. Mortals can't manage that, and even most pros can't.

The BSB Superbikes are technically slower around a track than the Stock 1000 bikes, hence the downgraded treaded tires on the Stock 1000 bikes. They also spend a ton of time mapping the engine during the season and depending on the track to contour the power delivery.

What is the goal though? To go fast around a track at the sacrifice of all other things? To learn how to control high horsepower (and high consequences) without a safety net? To just have fun?

I'm currently only engaging TC down the straights as the bike prevent wheelies. This is telling me I'm leaving a ton on the table in my exits after a smooth roll on. If I didn't have TC, I'd just be lofting the front a bit more but I wouldn't have much of a gauge for how hard I could continue to get on the throttle out of an exit.

How do I get better? Spin the rear up and... [insert mild to dire consequence here]? I've already got issues determining my lean angle consistency from lap to lap (not to mention no clue of what my grip level is at all).

 

[stangmx13]

I'm currently only engaging TC down the straights as the bike prevent wheelies. This is telling me I'm leaving a ton on the table in my exits after a smooth roll on. If I didn't have TC, I'd just be lofting the front a bit more but I wouldn't have much of a gauge for how hard I could continue to get on the throttle out of an exit.

How do I get better? Spin the rear up and... [insert mild to dire consequence here]? I've already got issues determining my lean angle consistency from lap to lap (not to mention no clue of what my grip level is at all).

how so? why do u think that?

 

[Phanuel]

how so? why do u think that?

I'm being passed on the inside on exits by people carrying more lean angle than I am.

 

[stangmx13]

there could be any number of causes for that, as I'm sure u already know.

IMO a good exit is "direction", "when you roll on", and "how hard you roll on" in order of most important to least important. most times I pass bigger bikes up the inside on exit, its because I had more direction. my bike is pointing toward the exit a lot sooner, so I accelerate sooner and harder.

spinning the rear tire shows your limit of drive traction and its not ez to learn how to spin it. u are going to have to push your limit. u just want to do so safely. absolutely make sure that uve already "finished" the corner before accelerating. absolutely make sure that u can and will subtract lean angle BEFORE accelerating. when u are sure of that, go to WOT in the same smooth but quick manner, just a tiny bit sooner. if u find yourself running wide, u went too soon. if the tire slides, u didnt subtract lean angle. but if u really did it just a tiny bit sooner, ull eventually creep up on that nice smooth tire spin.

ideally, u want ~10% wheelspin for maximum drive. but thats pipe dream stuff. u can win Expert races without any wheelspin if everything else is on point. but u probably still want to know where that limit is to remove all this doubt about drives. plus, this "upper limit" of drives is useful when working on mid-corner and braking.

 

[Holeshot]

u can win Expert races without any wheelspin if everything else is on point.

On a 600 at a slower pace, it's possible, to slow down after a gap has been built..but frankly, it's easier to just leave the thing on it's side and hammer the throttle and spin and just be lazy about doing anything on the exit. Plus, it's more fun...only if you've got a big enough lead tho! After a few laps, the thing's spinning in a few specific corners in a fast race, too. YMMV.

 

[stangmx13]

we are about the same pace around BW and my laps feel nothing like that .

I have a really hard time spinning Dunlop's latest 600 tire when it has <10 laps on it. And its not for lack of trying.

 

[Holeshot]

we are about the same pace around BW and my laps feel nothing like that .

I have a really hard time spinning Dunlop's latest 600 tire when it has <10 laps on it. And its not for lack of trying.

Robert...you'd really do well to come race with us. I don't know why you don't...
Towards the end of round 2, I did get up to a better pace. I have to admit, taking 3 years off to manage things at the event(s) had me concerned about if I could turn fast laps or not.

Sonoma was a 2 second delta (41.9 / 43.9) between us. I don't say "Come race with us" to pimp, but rather to try and get you more quality track time for the dollar...

Bring those D-lops and let's go send it!

 

[Aware]

I was at Buttonwillow yesterday. it was pretty wet. I put Road 5s on my 2012 CBR1000RR. No traction control.

I had some nice controllable rear wheel slides here and there. And a bit of a lairy slide with both wheels while exiting the esses.


Genuine question: with both wheels sliding, I'm guessing 2 possibilities:

Traction control might be confused (I'm guessing unsophisticated systems) and do nothing or cut power to the rear wheel, which would ... ? Risk causing a lowside on the front? ?

Modern fancy-pants lean-angle sensitive systems would? What? I Really don't know.

 

[jacob11379]

Robert...you'd really do well to come race with us. I don't know why you don't...
Towards the end of round 2, I did get up to a better pace. I have to admit, taking 3 years off to manage things at the event(s) had me concerned about if I could turn fast laps or not.

Sonoma was a 2 second delta (41.9 / 43.9) between us. I don't say "Come race with us" to pimp, but rather to try and get you more quality track time for the dollar...

Bring those D-lops and let's go send it!

Is there a specific outfit you normally ride with?

 

[jacob11379]

we are about the same pace around BW and my laps feel nothing like that .

I have a really hard time spinning Dunlop's latest 600 tire when it has <10 laps on it. And its not for lack of trying.

I notice all your bikes are 600's. Have you rode liter bikes and just preferred 600s or never wanted to move up?

 

[Enchanter]

I was at Buttonwillow yesterday. it was pretty wet. I put Road 5s on my 2012 CBR1000RR. No traction control.

I had some nice controllable rear wheel slides here and there. And a bit of a lairy slide with both wheels while exiting the esses.


Genuine question: with both wheels sliding, I'm guessing 2 possibilities:

Traction control might be confused (I'm guessing unsophisticated systems) and do nothing or cut power to the rear wheel, which would ... ? Risk causing a lowside on the front? ?

Modern fancy-pants lean-angle sensitive systems would? What? I Really don't know.

Did you have an opportunity to use the rear brake with the throttle on corner exit? Why or why not?