Trail braking = adding brakes and lean angle at the same time ?

[budman]

I'd be interested to experience that. I've never ridden a bike that didn't stand up on the brakes.

Not without a concerted effort.

My new multi has that mid turn ABS stuff. Not headed out to try it tomorrow, but from what I have read it works.

The tightening up of a turn with brakes seems like it would be because your slowing and still applying turning force.

The technique is likley above my yabadabado skill level.

 

[afm199]

I'd be interested to experience that. I've never ridden a bike that didn't stand up on the brakes.

I use the brakes to tighten up a turn.

 

[tzrider]

I sometimes do too but if I don't keep some pressure on the inside bar the bike will stand up a bit. I've never ridden anything that didn't do that.

 

[Smash Allen]

it's physics, applying front brake while leaned over results in forces that try to stand the bike up

some bikes have geometry that mitigate the tendency to stand up mid corner but it is still happening

you can tighten the line by braking but the line becomes tighter after the speed is bled, not as the brakes are applied IIRC

 

[EastBayDave]

Ditto and I have been doing it since they invented brakes

Yeah I remember you riding on drum brakes, w/wooden pads. Had to drill holes in the drum, & later added a air-scoop to try to keep them from catching fire.

Doesn't anyone remember adding 10 yards to braking markers each lap, (accounting for increasing fade) or you'd overcook the turn?

 

[clutchslip]

I'd be interested to experience that. I've never ridden a bike that didn't stand up on the brakes.

Yes, you have, because I have ridden some of the same bikes as you, and I can tighten the turn while braking on the same motorcycle. It actually seems weird to me to think that you can only "stand-up" a bike under braking. Very weird.

I had different experiences with even sixty-seventy bikes. Some technique is not being covered here, I am afraid. I hope we can figure out what we are missing from the differing opinions.

 

[stangmx13]

you can tighten the line by braking but the line becomes tighter after the speed is bled, not as the brakes are applied IIRC

the change in fork position affects everything, so im not sure this is entirely true. for example, fork dive reduces the wheelbase. a bike w/ less wheelbase needs less angle for any given turn radius. so if you hold a constant lean angle while reducing the wheelbase, your turning radius should tighten. but thats just the physics of it. in practice, the fact that the rider usually needs to apply some pressure to the bars while braking might offset any change.

 

[Smash Allen]

the change in fork position affects everything, so im not sure this is entirely true. for example, fork dive reduces the wheelbase. a bike w/ less wheelbase needs less angle for any given turn radius. so if you hold a constant lean angle while reducing the wheelbase, your turning radius should tighten. but thats just the physics of it. in practice, the fact that the rider usually needs to apply some pressure to the bars while braking might offset any change.

ah ha! i thought i might be forgetting something, you are spot on about fork dive reducing wheelbase and related consequences.

it's a lot easier to turn a bike when the front is loaded, maybe that is the idea that the OP link was trying to get across?

 

[KazMan]

Let's also keep in mind that trail braking is not just the front brake, which does have a tendency to make the bike stand up because of the hinge point at the steering stem. Where as trail braking with the rear brake, will have the immediate tendency to pull the bike down towards the apex.

The use of either brake while under lean, is trail braking.

 

[stangmx13]

ah ha! i thought i might be forgetting something, you are spot on about fork dive reducing wheelbase and related consequences.

it's a lot easier to turn a bike when the front is loaded, maybe that is the idea that the OP link was trying to get across?

its sometimes easier to turn the bike when the front is loaded. it really all depends on fork position, how hard u are braking to load the front, and how much lean angle u have. sometimes i must be on the brakes to get the bike to turn and other times the bike feels more nimble after ive released the brakes. that force that causes the bike to stand up is greater at higher lean angles because the contact patch is further from the centerline of the bike. so braking hard at high lean angles can really be detrimental to turning, even with the forks in the bottom half the stroke.

The use of either brake while under lean, is trail braking.

that was what the article was attempting to say and i disagree. if you arent trailing off the brake, its not trail braking. the action of reducing the brakes while adding lean angle is why the word "trail" exists. applying the brake mid-corner is just called braking.

i know its a semantics conversation at that point. but we all gotta agree on terms otherwise any technical convos will go nowhere.

at the track, any extra application of the brakes mid-corner that wasnt included in my trail braking usually means i made a mistake or had to react to something like another rider in the way. braking mid-corner is useful tool to recover from that, but it likely wasnt the fastest way.

 

[Smash Allen]

thank you for breaking it down like that Rob, hit the nail on the head

 

[KazMan]

Nope, I concur with your argument. Trail braking is the technique of gradual release of the brakes. I was just pointing out that the use of front or rear brake and, yes, the release of said brake, is trail braking (dirt trackers come to mind ).

In regards to the debate, I typically define any application of the brake after tip in, as direction control or attitude adjustment (much like a plane).

 

[stangmx13]

true, u gotta release it once uve applied it, so u better be trailing no matter what . though some riders make corners difficult on themselves by sharply letting go of the brake.

your definition of "direction control" would prob be helpful for A LOT of riders that might not realize that the brakes are a great tool to TURN the bike in addition to stopping it.

 

[Holeshot]

you can tighten the line by braking but the line becomes tighter after the speed is bled, not as the brakes are applied IIRC

They really happen at the same time. As you're slowing, you're adding lean angle and turning towards the apex, coming off the lever as much as is needed to maintain quick entry speed. We want to be on the front brake lever on entries where we want to control front traction.

Yes, you have, because I have ridden some of the same bikes as you, and I can tighten the turn while braking on the same motorcycle. It actually seems weird to me to think that you can only "stand-up" a bike under braking. Very weird.

Two things Scotland: It depends on how one uses the brakes. A slight drag of the lever allows for an increase in steering and sometimes that's all it takes to get under someone on an exit. Second; Andy is a proponent of bar pressure after lean angle is added. We are not. There's two ways to do things.

it's a lot easier to turn a bike when the front is loaded, maybe that is the idea that the OP link was trying to get across?

Moderately loaded, I'd say. The damn things don't turn in so good with max front braking. Robert is spot on though: Forks have to be loaded to be in their working range as well as, for a rider to have a large front contact patch. Once you let go of the front brakes before the apex, you have no control over the front of the motorcycle. Bikes do not "turn" until that front tire swings to the inside and that happens pretty closely to when a rider starts letting off the brakes and "trailing it in".

true, u gotta release it once uve applied it, so u better be trailing no matter what . though some riders make corners difficult on themselves by sharply letting go of the brake.

Sonoma T9: Trail in, hit the first apex on the right and then, for the flop: ad a smidgeon of throttle to the get the bike to stand up and over for the left turn exit.
Sometimes Throttle helps these things stand up too! When you gonna come and ride with is again?

 

[afm199]

They really happen at the same time. As you're slowing, you're adding lean angle and turning towards the apex, coming off the lever as much as is needed to maintain quick entry speed. We want to be on the front brake lever on entries where we want to control front traction.



Two things Scotland: It depends on how one uses the brakes. A slight drag of the lever allows for an increase in steering and sometimes that's all it takes to get under someone on an exit. Second; Andy is a proponent of bar pressure after lean angle is added. We are not. There's two ways to do things.



Moderately loaded, I'd say. The damn things don't turn in so good with max front braking. Robert is spot on though: Forks have to be loaded to be in their working range as well as, for a rider to have a large front contact patch. Once you let go of the front brakes before the apex, you have no control over the front of the motorcycle. Bikes do not "turn" until that front tire swings to the inside and that happens pretty closely to when a rider starts letting off the brakes and "trailing it in".




Sonoma T9: Trail in, hit the first apex on the right and then, for the flop: ad a smidgeon of throttle to the get the bike to stand up and over for the left turn exit.
Sometimes Throttle helps these things stand up too! When you gonna come and ride with is again?

What he said. Once I got the idea of trail braking as method of direction change, I never looked back.

I have two separated shoulders and pushing on the bars ends up being extremely painful after a couple hours, so I work constantly to find ways to minimize that. Trail braking makes turn in so much easier, apply weight to the inside peg and outside of the tank help so much to get the bike turned and control it. Ideally I'm only really pushing on the bar at turn in before I transition to pegs and tank. The place I notice it most is at the corkscrew at Laguna, I'm on the pegs from the moment I start turning in to the exit of the dip at the bottom.

 

[Tally Whacker]

Your understanding of trail braking is correct.

They seem to be describing applying brakes in a turn and trying to maintain the same lean angle. When you brake in the turn the bike will tend to stand up because the contact patch on the side you're leaned to has rearward drag on it, which countersteers the bike more upright. If you need to maintain lean angle, it takes a little pressure on the inside bar to counteract the torque the tire is putting on the fork.

This.

It is amazing to me how poorly understood this basic concept is by most riders. Almost any rider would agree that braking tends to stand a bike up in a corner, but the reality is that braking in a corner drops the bike in farther. Using front brake, however, pulls the wheel to the inside, thereby countersteering the bike up. If you only ever use the rear brake in a turn, you'll find the bike won't stand up (much*) at all.

Let's also keep in mind that trail braking is not just the front brake, which does have a tendency to make the bike stand up because of the hinge point at the steering stem. Where as trail braking with the rear brake, will have the immediate tendency to pull the bike down towards the apex.

The use of either brake while under lean, is trail braking.

Exactly.









*Of course, using the rear brake still shifts weight forward, compressing the forks and tightening the head angle and wheelbase. These effects will both slightly decrease the necessary lean for a given turning radius and it will feel as if the bike standing is up a little bit, but that isn't actually the physics of what is going on. What is actually going on is that the bike will need to lean over more to make it's line for the same speed.

 

[latindane]

This.

It is amazing to me how poorly understood this basic concept is by most riders. Almost any rider would agree that braking tends to stand a bike up in a corner, but the reality is that braking in a corner drops the bike in farther. Using front brake, however, pulls the wheel to the inside, thereby countersteering the bike up. If you only ever use the rear brake in a turn, you'll find the bike won't stand up (much*) at all.







Exactly.









*Of course, using the rear brake still shifts weight forward, compressing the forks and tightening the head angle and wheelbase. These effects will both slightly decrease the necessary lean for a given turning radius and it will feel as if the bike standing is up a little bit, but that isn't actually the physics of what is going on. What is actually going on is that the bike will need to lean over more to make it's line for the same speed.

The two bolded statements sound inconsistent with each other to me; can you elaborate or rephrase?

 

[stangmx13]

Sonoma T9: Trail in, hit the first apex on the right and then, for the flop: ad a smidgeon of throttle to the get the bike to stand up and over for the left turn exit.
Sometimes Throttle helps these things stand up too! When you gonna come and ride with us again?

im always so hesitant to use the throttle to stand the bike up. ive drilled it into my mind that i should stand the bike up first, then apply throttle. but it def is a useful tool for small mid-corner line adjustments. theres one corner around Chuckwalla where KenHill was trying to teach me that. but i dont find it as effective as using the bars, even though i know its faster.

one of these days ill make it up there for a trackday and/or race at Sonoma. Dennis (SpecECU) has been bugging me and offering for days.

ill be at the AFM BW round. did a 1:50.8 last time there w/ WERA, so hopefully i can be further up the results. come say hi at Laguna and root for me.

 

[Spec-ECU]

one of these days ill make it up there for a trackday and/or race at Sonoma. Dennis (SpecECU) has been bugging me and offering for days.

I'm not gonna bug forever, boo.

 

[Holeshot]

What's your AMA number Robert? I'll swing by at Laguna!