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Two dead batteries

What's the voltage of a fully charged battery? Does it matter if it's a European or Asian battery? What if the battery floats on water?
 
Do you see a wire bundle coming out of the left/crankshaft side of the motor?

Can you follow the wire to it's connector block? This connection goes to the reg/rect.

Can you disconnect the connector?

You can take the voltage readings from this connector.

esg060.jpg

Found and disconnected the connector. (this is where I took the resistance measurements)

But I would have to button all this up + tank + vacuum lines to get the engine running. At that point where do you take the measurement?

is it a matter of leaving the gas tank flipped up, and moving everything out of the way as best you can ?
 
First of all, no battery will hold a steady state 13.4 volts. Your first mistake is taking a voltage measurement right after removing the charger from the battery. You MUST wait at least 1 full hour, preferably two hours or more before checking the voltage. This time allows the voltage to stabilize.

Second, voltage is only part of the story. The battery must also have the amperage to do it's job. Consider this the "size" of the battery.

However, it's obvious your charging system is screwed up. Find out what part(s) of it is not working and fix.

Good luck.

I measured 13.4v, on the bench, after letting the battery sit overnight.

still trying to determine if the voltage regulator or the stator is the problem.
 
Found and disconnected the connector. (this is where I took the resistance measurements)

This stator output connector is where you take the engine running AC voltage measurements.

Up to you what you want to connect/disconnect to enable the engine running for this test. The test should take 60 seconds or less.
 
What's the voltage of a fully charged battery? Does it matter if it's a European or Asian battery? What if the battery floats on water?

No. 12 volt lead acid batteries are all the same. A fully charged, brand new battery should read 12.8 volts.

Floats on water?
 
I measured 13.4v, on the bench, after letting the battery sit overnight.

still trying to determine if the voltage regulator or the stator is the problem.

Well, assuming you're measuring a conventional lead acid 12 volt battery (this includes maintainence free, glass mat, AGM, etc.), and you charged it and then let it sit overnight off the charger, then your meter is way, way off. There's no way in hell a 12 volt battery will measure that high after sitting overnight to stabilize. I think your meter is highly inaccurate and cannot be trusted. Even if you're battery was in tip top shape and actually at a healthy 12.8 volts, you're still looking at a difference of roughly .6 volts (or greater). And when you're trying to assess the health of your charging system by taking voltage readings, that much error throws a big monkey wrench into the proceedings. Double check your meter against a known good one.
 
No. 12 volt lead acid batteries are all the same. A fully charged, brand new battery should read 12.8 volts.

Floats on water?
My failed attempt to reference Monty Python. I think fully-charged battery reads higher than that. The one on my bike reads 13.8v and the car-battery on the ground reads 14.3v and the one in my car says 13.5v. Same readings on 2 different meters. I'm pretty sure others can post their readings. The meters are not off.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_the_lead_acid_battery
"A voltage of 2.10V [per cell] at room temperature reveals a charge of about 90 percent."

That's 12.6v at 90% charged or 14v at 100%.

http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/maintenance/battery.htm
"12-volt batteries supply useful energy only through a limited range -- from over 14 volts (when fully charged and unrested) down to 10.5 volts in use/under load (when lights dim, your motorcycle is hard to start). No 12-volt battery will remain at over 14 volts for more than seconds unless it's being charged. The lowest limit is 10.5 volts (used in testing) and obviously unsatisfactory in practical use."

A couple of days after fully-charged, the "resting-voltage" will be 12.6v. I'm sure if we disconnect nebulous's 13.4v battery for a couple of days, it will read 12.6v.
 
I would bet that it is the regulator rectifier. They were known to fail on early R1's. If not repaired properly and quickly, they will melt the wiring harness causing the stator to short out and fail.
 
Charged original battery for just a few hours and it holds 13.4v.
Tested the battery that got me home: 11.82v, connected to the bike.
Installed original "charged" battery: 12.4v@5000 rpm.

Spec notes the charging system should bring the connected battery to 14v@5000rpm.

Next Step?

Battery voltage once charged means nothing.

A) It wasn't holding 13.4v, you just didn't put any load on it or let it sit for an hour before taking that measurement.

B) Even batteries down to a few percent of their original capacity will float up to full voltage, but this doesn't mean they have any usable capacity.

Next steps?

- AC voltage across all three phases of the stator (A-B, A-C, B-C).

This will help you determine if you have a problem with the stator or the reg/rec (possibly both, even.)
 
Yeah, we haven't tested the battery under load. Measure voltage with the battery plugged in. Then measure voltage when cranking the starter. The difference will give you valuable information.

As mentioned, it's most likely something in your charging system. Check raw AC output before the RR.
 
My failed attempt to reference Monty Python. I think fully-charged battery reads higher than that. The one on my bike reads 13.8v and the car-battery on the ground reads 14.3v and the one in my car says 13.5v. Same readings on 2 different meters. I'm pretty sure others can post their readings. The meters are not off.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_the_lead_acid_battery
"A voltage of 2.10V [per cell] at room temperature reveals a charge of about 90 percent."

That's 12.6v at 90% charged or 14v at 100%.

http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/maintenance/battery.htm
"12-volt batteries supply useful energy only through a limited range -- from over 14 volts (when fully charged and unrested) down to 10.5 volts in use/under load (when lights dim, your motorcycle is hard to start). No 12-volt battery will remain at over 14 volts for more than seconds unless it's being charged. The lowest limit is 10.5 volts (used in testing) and obviously unsatisfactory in practical use."

A couple of days after fully-charged, the "resting-voltage" will be 12.6v. I'm sure if we disconnect nebulous's 13.4v battery for a couple of days, it will read 12.6v.

The first quote relates to a battery that's just been charged and not rested.

The second get into more particulars but says much the same thing.

Bottom line is that to get any kind of meaningful readings on lead acid batteries, they must be "rested" and have spent time off of a load and off of any charging.

From Wikipedia:

Voltages for common usagesThese are general voltage ranges for six-cell lead-acid batteries:

Open-circuit (quiescent) at full charge: 12.6 V to 12.8 V (2.10-2.13V per cell)
Open-circuit at full discharge: 11.8 V to 12.0 V
Loaded at full discharge: 10.5 V.
Continuous-preservation (float) charging: 13.4 V for gelled electrolyte; 13.5 V for AGM (absorbed glass mat) and 13.8 V for flooded cells
1.All voltages are at 20 °C (68 °F), and must be adjusted -0.022V/°C for temperature changes.
2.Float voltage recommendations vary, according to the manufacturer's recommendation.
3.Precise float voltage (±0.05 V) is critical to longevity; insufficient voltage (causes sulfation) which is almost as detrimental as excessive voltage (causing corrosion and electrolyte loss)
Typical (daily) charging: 14.2 V to 14.5 V (depending on manufacturer's recommendation)
Equalization charging (for flooded lead acids): 15 V for no more than 2 hours. Battery temperature must be monitored.
Gassing threshold: 14.4 V
After full charge, terminal voltage drops quickly to 13.2 V and then slowly to 12.6 V.

Note the last bit. And then note the first bit about individual cell charges vs total battery voltage. It's not simple math.

If you've been charging your batteries and then disconnecting them and waiting overnight before taking voltage readings and still getting 13.4 volts, then there's something wrong with either the battery, the charger, or the meter. Or some combination. There's no getting around that.
 
Oh, and I have a Fluke 77 digital meter and in all the years of using it I've never seen more than a few hundreths of a volt above 12.8 on a rested battery. And that would take a new battery. Most used batteries in good condition are around 12.6.
 
Rested battery state is different than fully-charged state. We've been talking about two different conditions. OP's measuring battery just off the charger and you're talking about what it should read days later. Regardless, open-circuit voltage doesn't say much about a battery's condition. We've all determined in different ways that his batteries are most likely not the culprit. Now we're steering him in the direction of some of the charging system components; stator or RR.
 
I measured another battery and got 12.8v after a full recharge and a day on the bench. I don't think the meter is that far off. If I get a chance I will compare with another.


Checked the resistance spec of the stator in a Clymer manual, for 98-01 it should be .45-.55 ohms. 2002-3, .19-.23 ohms.

Mine measured .28 which has me concerned. Hoping the r/r is the prob as pulling the rotor sounds like a bicht.

I intend to do the voltage test, prob fri or sat.
 
I got the same problem on my 2002 R1. From my research its like everyone has said, either the r/r or stator. I ordered a new r/r and im waiting for it to arrive to be sure...otherwise the stator will need replacing which is a bitch since it's behind the flywheel.
 
I still find it mind boggling that bike manufacturers can't design a charging system that won't self destruct early. Geez.
 
I still find it mind boggling that bike manufacturers can't design a charging system that won't self destruct early. Geez.
Modern MOSFET RRs are very reliable now. Doesn't generate much self-destructing heat.

What commonly fails in the stator?
 
Modern MOSFET RRs are very reliable now. Doesn't generate much self-destructing heat.

What commonly fails in the stator?

'Still hear plenty of reports of VRR's dying here. :(
 
What's the voltage of a fully charged battery? Does it matter if it's a European or Asian battery? What if the battery floats on water?

I don't know that ... whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarg!!!!!!!
 
'Still hear plenty of reports of VRR's dying here. :(
Yes, it's only in the last 5-years that OEM VRRs are the MOSFET kind. Many will retrofit to older bikes. I suspect it's not purely replacing the regulator ICs with MOSFET equivalents, because the same mount of excess-voltage from the stator would still need to be dissipated to ground. The decrease in heat-generated is much too large for that to still be occuring. I suspect there's some buck-regulator components in there with re-claiming of the excess-voltage from the stator coils. I guess a simple test would be to compare stator-amps versus amps going out of the RR, then calculate watts wasted. Buck-regulators would be up to 80-95% efficient depending upon input vs. output difference, much better than linear-regulators.
 
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