Why is it so hard to buy a motorcycle?

[redtail]

OTD quote their OTD price was within $400 of a brand new OTD 2018!

So go buy the 2018 and move on to the next phase of planning your ride.

I have a '16 Versys LT and a '05 Goldwing, if I'm two up, of course I'll take the Goldwing, otherwise I'd rather tour the Versys when riding solo.

 

[berth]

There's a portion of the market who want to buy, whether new or used, but just don't want to deal with the headache of negotiating fees, free services, etc (similarly in the auto sales space, which has lead to the rise of TrueCar, CarMax, etc). Those in that portion of the market will more often than not just buy used. The dealers and manufacturers are losing sales, and, in a time where motorcycle sales are already on a decline, this hurts.

But here's the thing.

Again, I Don't Know. I'm not in the industry, I barely qualify as an armchair pundit. I'm simply an ignorant observer.

Whatever sales the industry is losing are apparently not worth chasing after. Whatever untapped market exists, apparently the Smart People in the industry aren't chasing it. I am fully confident the factories and dealers have lots of Smart People.

I look at the companies that post their used deals here. Some of the sponsors hit us regularly with a list of nice bikes that seems like "OK" prices to me. And, apparently, these shops have decent reps.

What I don't see is the same thing with current year, new stock.

This is a decent community, decent reach, and it's not even a "poor" community. Sure, everyone wants to save a buck, not everyone can afford everything, but there's "money" here. And informed, active buyers. And a wide reach. Post here, and the word would get out, into the Community by word of mouth, and even across forums.

It would be CHEAP to solicit this community (perhaps its against the guidelines, I don't know, doesn't seem to be).

So.

Where are they? Why not make a quick sale here? Where's the "Bob's Yamaha is offering Barf members a great rate on the new Tracer GT" to tap in to that enthusiastic thread that we had here?

We see a lot of proxies. "Hey, go talk to Fred at Fred and Barney's Honda, I got a good deal there". But where's Fred? "Hi! Mechanofinger from BARF sent me over here..."

Obviously they don't want the sale that bad (or maybe we simply don't let them, I don't know).

There is always a demographic of consumer that wants an easy purchase, and a fair price. But apparently that demographic isn't large enough, or lucrative enough for anyone to market too.

The closest thing we have is Costco, which, while good, is a hassle of it's own.

It's like seeing modern food products "Now with all natural ingredients" "Uh...what were they before!?!??" Imagine a dealer with a "New, fair prices!" campaign.

Now consider the automotive industry, MUCH MUCH bigger, same issues. Same complaints. Same stories. And only a small fraction of them advertise fixed prices. CarMax makes it a point, but, again, they're selling used cars which are always better "market priced" compared to MSRP, which simply can not cover the entirety of the US market fairly from a dealer point of view.

So, a haggling we will go.

When we bought our last car, we used Costco -- it was awesome. When I bought my Jeep, if you joined a club, you got some 1% under invoice or other such "fixed price". I said "good enough" and used that.

When we bought our car before that, I distinctly remember the guy be all happy and chatty and friendly and blah blah blah UNTIL he slid across that ever popular 4 square "dealer sheet" with a price on it and promptly shut up. I pulled out some printout from some website saying "pay this", and said "I'll pay that" and he said ok. And that, for me, was a terrible experience.

I hate haggling. It's not in my character. I'll never buy another car that I don't know what I'll be paying for it going in to the dealership.

I dread buying a new motorcycle. It's one reason I'm keen on a BMW, simply because I feel I'll likely get "less F'd" (beyond the "buying a BMW part") there. And even the idea that "Let's go to the dealer and fight to not get F'd" doesn't endure me to go in the first place. The simple case that I FEEL that "I'll get F'd" (thanks to threads like these) isn't particularly heartwarming either.

I await some brand dealer to come in here and tell us all how F'd we won't be by purchasing a current in stock model there (note I'm in OC, so, probably won't sway me personally, but, you know, spiritually, might be nice to see).

Then again, maybe it's all mis-communication, and I'm being unfair to the dealers. And all the dealers feel all of their prices are fair and reasonable and nobody gets F'd, and it's the consumers that have an unreasonable expectation. Unfortunately, that message doesn't seem to be getting out, and if that's the case, I apologize if I'm perpetuating a bad, communal myth. However, based on practices, it doesn't seem to be the case.

 

[ontherearwheel]

I wonder if all those that like to haggle would do so with their wage or salary?

Boss comes to you says he has someone that would do your job cheaper, and was wondering if you would match that offer and even come in under it by a few dollars.

 

[berth]

I wonder if all those that like to haggle would do so with their wage or salary?

Boss comes to you says he has someone that would do your job cheaper, and was wondering if you would match that offer and even come in under it by a few dollars.

Well, that's the thing right?

I don't mind paying the price, if the price is the price. I don't mind paying for Apple products, because I like Apple products. And I buy Apple products at the Apple store because I know basically that everyone sells Apple products for the same price (because of Apple policy). There's, like, a $5 discrepancy across vendors. The price is the price.

But with a vehicle, I FEEL that part of the price of the product is the extra margin to make up for those that DO haggle. The price isn't the price. If you walk out the door, paying "sticker", you left money on the table.

My friend bought a Mazda 323, a zillion years ago. He said "Hey lets stop at this car lot, I want to look at a car." We were there FOUR HOURS as they nickel and dimed each other, and that wasn't even my car. One of the sales staff came out and ask me to "help them with your friend". "No thanks!" Because it both a game, and money to them. I guarantee you they were arguing over $1/month on the payment at some point.

And as someone who doesn't like to play, I eat the extra price. So I have to pay the price of someone else's "skills" or determination or whatever, because the dealer WILL lose sales if they don't haggle.

 

[NoTraffic]

Well, that's the thing right?

I don't mind paying the price, if the price is the price. I don't mind paying for Apple products, because I like Apple products. And I buy Apple products at the Apple store because I know basically that everyone sells Apple products for the same price (because of Apple policy). There's, like, a $5 discrepancy across vendors. The price is the price.

But with a vehicle, I FEEL that part of the price of the product is the extra margin to make up for those that DO haggle. The price isn't the price. If you walk out the door, paying "sticker", you left money on the table.

My friend bought a Mazda 323, a zillion years ago. He said "Hey lets stop at this car lot, I want to look at a car." We were there FOUR HOURS as they nickel and dimed each other, and that wasn't even my car. One of the sales staff came out and ask me to "help them with your friend". "No thanks!" Because it both a game, and money to them. I guarantee you they were arguing over $1/month on the payment at some point.

And as someone who doesn't like to play, I eat the extra price. So I have to pay the price of someone else's "skills" or determination or whatever, because the dealer WILL lose sales if they don't haggle.

I fully agree with you and have thought on hours on end why dealerships do this. I think one aspect comes into play that affects a dealer greatly is the financing option. Most potential buyers who come into a dealership are looking to finance or are curious at what this would look like on a monthly loan. Go to any of the more high end motorcycle dealers and you'll see customers sitting at a sales desk for hours, lol.

Most other goods as you said are purchased at point of sale for a flat price. Credit cards are popular for a reason. One goes to Apple, and buys it because it they've already negotiated the rate with their credit card company if they can't afford to pay it up front.

On the other hand, a dealer just can't give you an Out the Door price maybe because of the buyer's credit score. I'm not an expert or even amateur in this industry either but that's a factor I've derived at. They need to do credit checks, and if one wants to finance a bike, instead of $6499 it's now $7299 cause of one's bad credit due to interest. Perhaps they utilize the "fees" as an enticing way to make the negotiation process work at the end of the day and make them look like "Mr./Ms. Good Salesman".

The stories I hear about great deals from dealerships is usually because the person paid in cash. No finance, no headache. I agree though as well, that if a dealer could give a flat price on a new bike and offer it to the public, they'd be dominating the market. I think they don't practice this because for even 1 out of every 5 buyers, if they can get 20% more on the sale price, it's keeping the lights on and the staff happy. Back in the mid-90's, I had a 19 yr old friend walk straight into a BMW dealership wanting a new M3. He offered 10k below asking, all cash in a briefcase, and walked out with the keys.

To play devil's advocate though, there are large dealerships in low rent areas that do advertise lower prices, such as in Chatsworth. Not awesome prices, but about $500-800 to their competitors.

 

[NoTraffic]

*High end meaning more expensive. Not better dealers or better quality per se. =D

 

[Map8]

Credit score doesn't affect the price. Motorcycle dealers don't carry the loan. Its all third party. Even manufacturer financing is third party. The dealer just wants to sell the bike and doesn't really care about the funding. Some, but definitely not all, manufacturer programs allow a the dealer to earn a percentage on the financing but the numbers are laughably low (1% to 2% of loan value when I worked at a dealer - probably less now days).

Cash doesn't matter, either. That line of thinking is a holdover from decades ago when it used to take 30 days or more for the dealer to get paid by the finance company. The finance company now pays the dealer in a few days at most. Cash is a pain to handle and keep track of. There is a lot of risk in handling large amounts of cash so there is no real benefit to a cash sale and thus no incentive to give a better price for cash.

Haggling isn't a bad thing. Lamps or furniture or computers or other consumer electronics are not major purchases like a motorcycle or car or house. For major purchases, its important to do your homework because a lot of money is on the line. The example of the friend who spent four hours haggling is a good one. If he saved a $1,000 then he made $250/hr during that time. Seems worthwhile to me.

As for haggling over salary, well your salary is likely dependent on someone, somewhere haggling for a better deal with a supplier or customer or contractor.

 

[c-mo]

check out https://www.jmmotorsports.com/index.php

 

[twinturba]

I wonder if all those that like to haggle would do so with their wage or salary?

Boss comes to you says he has someone that would do your job cheaper, and was wondering if you would match that offer and even come in under it by a few dollars.

I don't like to haggle, but I hate to get taken advantage of. When I was younger buying a new vehicle was a very intimidating process. I bought my first Aprilia RS50 brand new and was overwhelmed with fees that nearly doubled the MSRP of the bike. This kept me from buying new vehicles for a while.

A little over nine years ago my son was born so it was better for my piece of mind to buy my wife a safe new vehicle to transport him around in. Remembering my first experience I was a little apprehensive, but a little more prepared. Since then I have purchased five new vehicles, all of which I found to be long drawn out processes involving back and forth which could have all been avoided if they stopped trying to add fees and sell me add on's I don't need.

Flashback to 2016 which is the last time I bought a new motorcycle. I wanted a bike to ride north up HWY 1 with my friend who was riding a KTM RC390. Unfortunately I had just sold my 2015 (bought used) when he was finally able to take the trip and no more used bikes were available on the market. Luckily I found Northbay Motorsports who advertised an OTD price on the KTM RC390 that was reasonable so I called them, drove up, wrote them a check, and came back with the bike the same day. No haggling needed, no time wasted, and I even spent some money in their parts department because I was so happy with the experience. Why can't dealers do this as practice?

As for your salary analogy you have the roles mixed up a little. Ever heard the saying "pay the cost to be the boss"

The employer is the one with the cash who pays employees for a service similar to a buyer with cash who pays a dealer for a service. The employer can choose who and how much to pay employees based on the market, just like a buyer can choose which dealer and how much to pay based on the market.

 

[Charles R]

Here's an exercise to try next time anyone goes into a dealer...

Count up every single employee you see, and double that so your including the people you don't see. Multiply that number by about $2000.00 and you'll get a rough estimate of just the employee overhead a shop, any shop, has per week. (Wages, work comp fees, health bennies, etc.)

Think about the monthly leases for the property. Some own, for which they pay property taxes and mortgages, but some rent.
Bugformance's lease was $8000.00/month

Now imagine liability insurance.. State, county and city fees...

How about company owned tools? One shop i worked for had one single scan tool that cost $20,000.00. (which also got his insurance premium raised) amongst the tens of thousands of dollars of other tools in the shop.

Now...
Look around to see how many customers are on the floor.

See a lot?
Good. That means a dealer can divide up all that overhead through the expectations of a lot of 'lower profit' sales.

Does it look like a ghost town?
Good luck trying to get a screaming deal.

That's typically how i look at a place i want to purchase something from. I've bought 2 new bikes, 1 new car, and 2 used cars from dealerships, and I can't recall ever spending more than an hour or two total from arriving on the lot, to driving away.

It's all about recognizing the 'battle conditions' and adjusting the approach and expectations.

 

[bobl]

As someone earlier said, the only number that matters is the out the door price. Just ask for that, and if you want to deal, make an offer. The rest is just smoke and mirrors. I don't even go into the office to sit, and or talk to a closer. "I just want the OTD price, and I'll wait out here, thanks." Then decide if you want the vehicle for that price.

As for cash, my father was a small businessman for many years. He used to say (with a wink and a nod) that cash was easier to "process".

 

[berth]

Here's an exercise to try next time anyone goes into a dealer...

I don't think anyone disputes that.

The problem is a matter of expectations where the "sticker" price and the OTD prices vary widely.

Nobody buys a car without the expectation of a few fees. As long as you can weasel your way out of getting "Tru-Coat", the process is straightforward and not very surprising.

Also, when you buy a new car, most cars that I've seen, if there is a markup, it's noted on the "sticker" price, not some back door fee that's not revealed until later. Markup, accessories, etc., are all on the car.

I've definitely seen cars with "$5000" markup, just there scrawled on a piece of paper next to the build sheet in black Sharpie.

Go to the motorcycle dealer, and it's "6995 + tax + doc + prep". And there in lies the black hole.

See that and it's like "6995, 10% tax, that's 7700...so, you know...8000ish, ballpark, 8300? amirite?"

NNNNope...

Part of the problem is that bikes are much cheaper than cars, so there's less room for overhead in the MSRP profit margin. So, dealers pretty much have to pick it up on the backend.

But it's the transparency (or lack of) of it all that makes for a bad buying experience. You can't readily set your expectations, and then you're not sure if they're charging the you the shop rate, the rate + not-paying-attention fee, or rate + look-like-they-can-pay-it fee, or, the popular rate + didn't-haggle fee.

And, again, this doesn't happen on used bikes. Those bikes are priced to the local market. The dealers margin is already in place.

 

[davidji]

The problem is a matter of expectations where the "sticker" price and the OTD prices vary widely.

Also advertising a price, and then adding "markup" to it after the fact is blatant false advertising.

Inflated freight and setup fees are bad enough. Tacking those fees on after the fact to an advertised price appears to violates CVC 11713.1 . But adding on "dealer markup" is worse. They've dropped any pretense of selling the bike for the price they advertised.

https://codes.findlaw.com/ca/vehicle-code/veh-sect-11713-1.html

 

[davidji]

It looks like craigslist doesn't count under the CVC section I linked as an advertisement. Perhaps dealers are allowed to commit fraud there. The dealer's web site however does count.

 

[Slow Goat]

Don't make it harder than it is!
A) use cash or have your own financing (pre-approval to $X) ready to go.

B) tell them what you're willing to pay.

C) they either offer to sell at "your" price or you walk out the door.

Of course this approach works a lot better before Memorial Day and after Labor Day. Best time to buy new is February; selling old new stock before the next model-years come in/eager to move units after seeing last year's (poor) sales totals.

CharlesR makes a good point. Dealers with fewer sales aren't likely to likely to let a penny slip by.

 

[ontherearwheel]

Next time you go to resturant and go to order your meal, tell them the asking price for the meal you want is too high and you will only pay a xx for the meal.

BTW.......both tracer gt the dealer got in were sold before they even got to the dealer. I put a deposit down couple weeks before they arrived.......someone else did the same thing.

 

[norcalkid]

Next time you go to resturant and go to order your meal, tell them the asking price for the meal you want is too high and you will only pay a xx for the meal.

BTW.......both tracer gt the dealer got in were sold before they even got to the dealer. I put a deposit down couple weeks before they arrived.......someone else did the same thing.

On the other hand, go to a restaurant for their advertised $9.99 special. When you go to order you find it's $9.99 + food delivery fee and processing fee. Your probably guna be like WTF $9.99 my a**.

I don't really see what guys are complaining about on here a price thread. More a underhanded advertising thread.

My local BMW shop does list OTD pricing on the bikes in the showroom. Only one I know of.

 

[moto-rama]

Hmm.

Maybe "If" you dropped the "But"s , and "If"s from your search, you would be telling us about the trip?

 

[moto-rama]

......
Part of the problem is that bikes are much cheaper than cars, so there's less room for overhead in the MSRP profit margin. So, dealers pretty much have to pick it up on the backend.

......

People just don't want dealers to "pick it up" on their back end.....

I won't tell you what used to happen in the finance office when I was in the car business. In the 80's and 90's you'd be lucky if you still had an ass left to sit in your new car.

Consumer protections are pretty decent, depending on the state you live in. Some states allow dealers to charge AnythingTheyWant for doc fees and other "Packs"...
We've got it fairly good here, at least until they completely dismantle the Govt Regs on loans, car sales and Arbitration is forced on us for everything.

 

[moto-rama]

I wonder if all those that like to haggle would do so with their wage or salary?

Boss comes to you says he has someone that would do your job cheaper, and was wondering if you would match that offer and even come in under it by a few dollars.

That's what Unions are for.