Zero Motorcycles

[Butch]

Exciting times we live in. As i await the delivery of my Alta Redshift MX...

 

[U26A1]

As Funkadellic says, free your mind and your ass will follow.

Best thread bump I've ever seen.

Also yeah. When I get curious questions about the Brammo from other riders, there's a lot of interactions like:

"Whoa I've never seen something like that! 100 miles of range? They've really made strides in the past couple years! Did you just buy it?"

"Uh, well I've had it for about 4 years . . ."

 

[Killroy1999]

I got one and I am very happy with it.

I spoke to Harlem at Hollywood electrics, and their custom FXS was raced at Pikes Peak and has a pace at or better than the liter bikes. Apparently, there was a crash do to the fact that the electrics go early and before anyone else and the course was wet, dirty and icy. Yikes.

 

[kevin 714]

Basically anyone doubting electric moto tech and it's growth as it pertains to urban utility is burrying their head in the sand.

or purposefully wanting it not to work, in a sort of "roaling coal" kinda of way

so many peoplke have their ideologies wrapped up in their personhood, they cant see the obviousness.

saying battery tech wont improve in th next few years is akin to lord kelvin saying heavier than air machines will never fly.

its just old men not wanting change

 

[rick]

I was seriously getting ready to buy one as my next commuter.

The Zero ZF13.0 + Power Tank is the only one that can make the distance but, that still left me with some range anxiety. The "S" was about $19,069.21 OTD the "SR" would be ~$21,436.90. There's a small rebate with that and a tax credit but, that's pretty damn expensive which made it harder to justify.

Zero got crossed off the list for three additional reasons:

• The new "Drive Motor Commissioning and Timing" maintenance requirement every 8,000 miles of 12 months for 2016 models (with the new IPM motor) is just too frequent with the nearest Zero dealer being 4-1/2 hours away (which becomes 9 hours if they can't do it while I waited).
  
• I emailed Zero to ask if there's any way I could perform that maintenance myself, ideally with a Sevcon Hand Held Calibrator which is cheap to rent and not so bad to buy.
  
  Here's the meat of their response:
  

  all service must be done at a Zero dealer to maintain warranty on the motorcycle

  The first Google hit for that sentence says that dealer tie-in sales provision like this are illegal. I asked them about that and then they shut me out.
  
  I can't bring myself to spend that kind of money with a company that acts that way.
  
  
• My closest dealer, Hollywood Electrics, was a little odd over email and pressing hard for me to come down and buy right now. He said that if I came down today that they'll take $1000 off the price and that I'll be kicking myself later if I don't do it now. A little research showed that the $1000 off was part of Zero's 10th Anniversary Promotion for the entire summer.
  
  The way the Carl played the manufacturer discount as a special deal just for me felt scummy.

So, the scummy vibe from both the dealer and the manufacturer got Zero crossed off my list ....maybe for good I'm almost certainly going with another IC bike this time around and we'll see what other manufacturer's have come up with in a few years which is too bad. I was really looking forward to an extremely low maintenance bike that never had to go to the gas station.

 

[jwb]

I was seriously getting ready to buy one as my next commuter.

The Zero ZF13.0 + Power Tank is the only one that can make the distance but, that still left me with some range anxiety. The "S" was about $19,069.21 OTD the "SR" would be ~$21,436.90. There's a small rebate with that and a tax credit but, that's pretty damn expensive which made it harder to justify.

Zero got crossed off the list for three additional reasons:

• The new "Drive Motor Commissioning and Timing" maintenance requirement every 8,000 miles of 12 months for 2016 models (with the new IPM motor) is just too frequent with the nearest Zero dealer being 4-1/2 hours away (which becomes 9 hours if they can't do it while I waited).
  
• I emailed Zero to ask if there's any way I could perform that maintenance myself, ideally with a Sevcon Hand Held Calibrator which is cheap to rent and not so bad to buy.
  
  Here's the meat of their response:
  
  The first Google hit for that sentence says that dealer tie-in sales provision like this are illegal. I asked them about that and then they shut me out.
  
  I can't bring myself to spend that kind of money with a company that acts that way.
  
  
• My closest dealer, Hollywood Electrics, was a little odd over email and pressing hard for me to come down and buy right now. He said that if I came down today that they'll take $1000 off the price and that I'll be kicking myself later if I don't do it now. A little research showed that the $1000 off was part of Zero's 10th Anniversary Promotion for the entire summer.
  
  The way the Carl played the manufacturer discount as a special deal just for me felt scummy.

So, the scummy vibe from both the dealer and the manufacturer got Zero crossed off my list ....maybe for good I'm going with another IC bike this time around and we'll see what other manufacturer's have come up with in a few years which is too bad. I was really looking forward to an extremely low maintenance bike that never had to go to the gas station.

You got a scummy vibe when trying to buy a motorcycle, eh? In my experience this is not specific to electrics.

 

[rick]

Very true! I semi-expect scummy tactics and general ignorance about their own products from a salesman. I don't like it and I try to avoid giving places like that my money if I can.

The illegal statement from Zero and then shutting me out was a much bigger deal. If they had apologized and said it was an ignorant statement from a poorly trained person then maybe I could have dismissed it. Particularly if they followed up with the instructions on how to perform the calibration service myself.

Zero doesn't have a service manual available to the public for their bikes either - also a big negative.
People are trying to build their own here FWIW and I'm sure that certain aspects of wrenching on this bike, particularly near the power pack, are dangerous for novices to be goofing around with but, I'd think that as a small manufacturer they would be trying to remove barriers for people to take a risk on them and not be adding them.

 

[mrzuzzo]

Kinda sucks that they didn't implement quick charging. I can charge my car for 20min and go almost 80 miles!

 

[Killroy1999]

The "S" was about $19,069.21 OTD the "SR" would be ~$21,436.90. There's a small rebate with that and a tax credit but, that's pretty damn expensive which made it harder to justify.

I bought a 2015 RS Demo Bike with 800 miles in 2015 for $12,000 out the door. I shipped it from Alabama. I did some shopping.

I would rather have a fast charger than the optional extra battery brick (Power Tank). My range in the SC Mountains on my 2015 SR is ~130 miles.

ason
[*]My closest dealer, Hollywood Electrics, was a little odd over email and pressing hard for me to come down and buy right now. He said that if I came down today that they'll take $1000 off the price and that I'll be kicking myself later if I don't do it now. A little research showed that the $1000 off was part of Zero's 10th Anniversary Promotion for the entire summer.

The way the Carl played the manufacturer discount as a special deal just for me felt scummy.
[/LIST]

Hollywood Electrics sells more Zeros than any dealer, FYI. The staff is very knowledgeable. That calibration sounds like it sucks if you are near a dealer. I'm glad that I work 5 minutes away form the Zero Factory. San Jose BMW/ZERO never helped me anyway when I asked them to help me set the suspension sag on my Zero.

 

[m0t0_ryder]

Harlan at Hollywood Electrics is one of the (if not "the") best E-bike dealers around.
While I was at Zero (Customer Support) it was a pleasure working issues with Harlan. Compared to some of the other Zero dealers.
When SJBMW first took on the Zero line (I was still at Zero) I stopped by (on my time) to give them an overview (and do the Pre Sale Inspection). I offered to come back to work with their techs to do basic troubleshooting (pull logs for evaluation) but that never happened.

I too pushed for allowing customers "some access" to the commissioning and timing procedure. Especially when some customers are hundreds of miles (and some a state or two) away. I do also understand the companies hesitance at others doing this. A mistake could have severe consequences.

 

[2strokeYardSale]

I'm all ready to jump on the electric bandwagon for my 35 mile commute, about 30 of which is freeway. So I'll just get the most affordable Zero model, the FXS 3.3 at $8500. What's this? 18 mi range at 70 mph? OK, gotta bump up to the FXS 6.5 to go 37 mi for $11K. Well, I'm skeptical that after some use or in the cold the battery will have a 37 mi freeway charge, better bump up to the S 9.8 for 61 mi at the same price. Range to spare, hooray!

What's this, cold weather riding depletes the range by 30%? Still OK, if the battery will charge in 12 hours in my cold garage.

What's this, parking in the hot summer sun hurts the battery? Well, I should just drive my air conditioned truck to work on those few days a year.

What's this, it requires dealer servicing every 8K mi? What happened to "eliminating maintenance" as they say on their web site?

I guess I'll wait for the Yamaha FZ-E.

 

[kuksul08]

I'm all ready to jump on the electric bandwagon for my 35 mile commute, about 30 of which is freeway. So I'll just get the most affordable Zero model, the FXS 3.3 at $8500. What's this? 18 mi range at 70 mph? OK, gotta bump up to the FXS 6.5 to go 37 mi for $11K. Well, I'm skeptical that after some use or in the cold the battery will have a 37 mi freeway charge, better bump up to the S 9.8 for 61 mi at the same price. Range to spare, hooray!

What's this, cold weather riding depletes the range by 30%? Still OK, if the battery will charge in 12 hours in my cold garage.

What's this, parking in the hot summer sun hurts the battery? Well, I should just drive my air conditioned truck to work on those few days a year.

What's this, it requires dealer servicing every 8K mi? What happened to "eliminating maintenance" as they say on their web site?

I guess I'll wait for the Yamaha FZ-E.

Those are technology limitations, not brand limitations. If Yamaha released an electric bike it would have all the same things, they just might not be so up front about it.

 

[Killroy1999]

I'm all ready to jump on the electric bandwagon for my 35 mile commute, about 30 of which is freeway. So I'll just get the most affordable Zero model, the FXS 3.3 at $8500. What's this? 18 mi range at 70 mph? OK, gotta bump up to the FXS 6.5 to go 37 mi for $11K. Well, I'm skeptical that after some use or in the cold the battery will have a 37 mi freeway charge, better bump up to the S 9.8 for 61 mi at the same price. Range to spare, hooray!

What's this, cold weather riding depletes the range by 30%? Still OK, if the battery will charge in 12 hours in my cold garage.

What's this, parking in the hot summer sun hurts the battery? Well, I should just drive my air conditioned truck to work on those few days a year.

What's this, it requires dealer servicing every 8K mi? What happened to "eliminating maintenance" as they say on their web site?

I guess I'll wait for the Yamaha FZ-E.

Its really not that hard. Environmental concerns are not really a big deal especially in CA.

 

[Killroy1999]

Kinda sucks that they didn't implement quick charging. I can charge my car for 20min and go almost 80 miles!

Do you are probably talking about DC fast charging. What car?

Does have the "charge tank", which does about 18 miles of range in 20 min (~52 miles/hour), which is not that fast, but it does it with a regularly available J1772 (level 2).

DC fast charging, is still harder to find.

If you really want fast charging for a Zero, you have to go to the startup Diginow, which can do 160 miles/ hour of charging on a 10 kW J1772.

A Zero S/SR/DS pack is ~13 kWhr, so it is easier to fill faster than a car on a J1772 plug.

There is only one DC fast charger in my town, Campbell and it is at ChargePoint, which makes charge stations. ha ha
Yet, there are a lot more in Santa Clara or other towns.

 

[kuksul08]

Do you are probably talking about DC fast charging. What car?

Does have the "charge tank", which does about 18 miles of range in 20 min (~52 miles/hour), which is not that fast, but it does it with a regularly available J1772 (level 2).

DC fast charging, is still harder to find.

If you really want fast charging for a Zero, you have to go to the startup Diginow, which can do 160 miles/ hour of charging on a 10 kW J1772.

A Zero S/SR/DS pack is ~13 kWhr, so it is easier to fill faster than a car on a J1772 plug.

I understood some of those words.

 

[U26A1]

I understood some of those words.

A top-end Zero tank is 13 kilowatt-hours. A top-end Tesla tank is 100 kilowatt-hours.

If you're refilling both of those on an equal charger (i.e. a 220V outlet with a J1772 plug), the Zero is gonna take way, way less time to refill.

This is why, whenever anybody asks me "oh when do you think electrics will finally have the range?" I respond: it's not the range, it's the charging time. Right now my Brammo has a 9 kilowatt-hour tank, and takes ~3.5 hours to recharge. If battery tech were to suddenly have a blitzkrieg advance overnight and you doubled the capacity of my tank . . . all that would mean is that I'd take seven hours to recharge to full.

 

[kuksul08]

A top-end Zero tank is 13 kilowatt-hours. A top-end Tesla tank is 100 kilowatt-hours.

If you're refilling both of those on an equal charger (i.e. a 220V outlet with a J1772 plug), the Zero is gonna take way, way less time to refill.

This is why, whenever anybody asks me "oh when do you think electrics will finally have the range?" I respond: it's not the range, it's the charging time. Right now my Brammo has a 9 kilowatt-hour tank, and takes ~3.5 hours to recharge. If battery tech were to suddenly have a blitzkrieg advance overnight and you doubled the capacity of my tank . . . all that would mean is that I'd take seven hours to recharge to full.

I heard one of the biggest restrictions when it comes to charging is heat and cable size. They have to use massive copper cable - like 0000 gauge, with water jacket cooling, but then the thing weighs 200lbs. Why not just use multiple parallel charge ports?

 

[U26A1]

I heard one of the biggest restrictions when it comes to charging is heat and cable size. They have to use massive copper cable - like 0000 gauge, with water jacket cooling, but then the thing weighs 200lbs. Why not just use multiple parallel charge ports?

Somebody who works at one of the manufacturers should chime in here, but my understanding is that you can do so, but:

1.) The charging devices are rather large, and if you want to put them physically on the bike, they add weight. I do know somebody who added two more onboard chargers on his Zero to be able to parallel charge on trips, and he had to strap them onto the back of the bike like saddlebags. Here's his setup. So you add a bunch of weight and also take away luggage capacity.

2.) It's kind of a dick move to show up to a charging facility and take up 2 or 3 or 4 charging stations.

3.) In the case of not a public charging station, even if you find multiple outlets to be able to plug into, there's no guarantee you won't just trip a breaker drawing that much at once.

Anyway yeah -- as you say re: heat/cable size: charging speed is really an issue of public charging infrastructure. And part of the reason I'm convinced Tesla will succeed is that they're the only people who seem to be seriously working on the problem. Their Supercharger stuff can recharge at a rate of like . . . 90-120 kilowatts. So if my Brammo accepted their charging, and the math were ideal, I could recharge my 9 kilowatt-hour tank all the way in like . . . 6 minutes?

 

[mrzuzzo]

All the other electronic cars also offer fast charging.

There is a world recognized standard and multiple fast charging stations, some of them free, that use this 400V CCS plug.

My piece of shit Chevy Spark has it, and there are 2 free charging stations within a 10min drive from my house, and a paid one 2 minutes away.

Battery/climate issues shouldn't be a big deal with the moderare Bay Area climate IMO.

The engineers over at Zero need to figure out how to get fast charging on the bike. 5 minute recharge time would seal the deal for many.

 

[m0t0_ryder]

There are a few current limitations to the Zero charging system. When I left in 2014 anyway.
They run on about 108VDC.
Their built in charger is a 1300W charger so can only charge at that rate.
The J1772 charging option is still limited as to available systems it can connect to because it cannot step down the 400VDC of other stations, Nor can it restrict the charging current w/o this voltage stepdown.
When I worked there it was required of those seeking the J1772 option for their Zeros to contact marketing to see if there were charging stations in their area that would work with the Zero.

Also Zero makes (made?) a parallel charging adapter cable to run up to four of the 1300W chargers at once. This cut the charge time to 25%. It also required different household circuits for each "pair" of chargers.
But... those damn chargers were rather spendy.
There are other brand chargers of up to about 2000W available. Maybe more.
Harlan at Hollywood knows of these and has used and sold them in the past.