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Nation-wide climate strike by students

byke said:
I feel like all I have to do is wait a few minutes and you'll see how silly and illogical that all is, but...it's been hours so I dunno. Are all crimes a person's parent's fault? Are speeding violations your driving instructor's fault? Are math errors your math teacher's fault?
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Not at all, it is perfectly logical. When people have the ability to assign responsibility to others, if they choose to do so, they hold responsibility for the decision to entrust power to that person. You examples are all over the board, so their is no point in addressing them.

Blankpage said:
Everything is your fault, three fingers pointing back at you and all that.
At the end of the day everyone should kick themselves in the balls for the mistakes of those around you.
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Not sure I would of that far, but everyone should assume 100% of life is a threat, and that they hold sole responsibility for control of their life and protection from the threats posed by it.

Your life is your fault, own it, solve it, march forward. The world owes no one anything.

Climber said:
I think that only applies if you vote for them again, then you are 100% opted in.

'Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me'
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I do not agree. Certainly, if you allow yourself to be fooled by a candidate, the candidate fooling you probably shares some blame, but nevertheless, you are the one who trusted him, and trust should never be given without being earned.

msethhunter said:
I hope they all walked or rode their bikes to the protests.
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Probably mainly took transit. That is how most people get downtown. Driving is too much of a clusterfuck.
 
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Eldritch said:
I do not agree. Certainly, if you allow yourself to be fooled by a candidate, the candidate fooling you probably shares some blame, but nevertheless, you are the one who trusted him, and trust should never be given without being earned.
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I don't trust any candidate. Now what?
 
Eldritch said:
Not at all, it is perfectly logical. When people have the ability to assign responsibility to others, if they choose to do so, they hold responsibility for the decision to entrust power to that person. You examples are all over the board, so their is no point in addressing them.
...
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I also see the flaw in your logic. Individuals voting for a candidate for public office are not delegating their responsibility/authority to the candidate that they vote for! They have no authority/responsibility to perform the duties of the position in the first place.
 
tzrider said:
I don't trust any candidate. Now what?
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Then I assume you do not vote for them?

cfives said:
I also see the flaw in your logic. Individuals voting for a candidate for public office are not delegating their responsibility/authority to the candidate that they vote for! They have no authority/responsibility to perform the duties of the position in the first place.
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Why are you injecting delegation in as part of the logic structure?
 
Eldritch said:
...

Why are you injecting delegation in as part of the logic structure?
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Because of your previously quoted phasing, "When people have the ability to assign responsibility to others, if they choose to do so, they hold responsibility for the decision to entrust power to that person". That implies delegation of authority from someone who currently wields said authority.

Individuals do not wield that authority, but do have a small input into the community voice that determines who is allowed to have that authority. Once the community gives power to an elected official, individuals in that community have little power to modify the behavior of the elected official if it is not to their liking. A very different situation than a business owner hiring an employee, in my (and probably everyone else's) opinion.
 
cfives said:
Because of your previously quoted phasing, "When people have the ability to assign responsibility to others, if they choose to do so, they hold responsibility for the decision to entrust power to that person". That implies delegation of authority from someone who currently wields said authority.

Individuals do not wield that authority, but do have a small input into the community voice that determines who is allowed to have that authority. Once the community gives power to an elected official, individuals in that community have little power to modify the behavior of the elected official if it is not to their liking. A very different situation than a business owner hiring an employee, in my (and probably everyone else's) opinion.
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The wielding of said authority prior to delegation is your own jump in logic. It is not implied by my position.

Are you suggesting that you can fire someone just because they aren't a great fit in California? I assure you, that isn't a safe HR practice in this state. You have to define reasons and give opportunities for correction, or you are going to get sued for wrongful termination.

Similarly, you have an opportunity to recall, impeach, or simply not re-elect elected officials once they are in office. Ask Grey Davis.

The minutia of the particular metaphor is irrelevant other than for the purpose of semantic internet bickering, which is useless. The position is that in a Democratic Society, the voting eligible representatives of said society are responsible for the officials they elect. You are taking up a position in opposition to that?
 
Eldritch said:
The wielding of said authority prior to delegation is your own jump in logic. It is not implied by my position.

...

The position is that in a Democratic Society, the voting eligible representatives of said society are responsible for the officials they elect. You are taking up a position in opposition to that?
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Fair enough, my position is that the voters are responsible of electing the officials, and recalling/ not re-electing them if they are unhappy with the officials performance, but the voters are not responsible for the actions of the official while in office.

Power and a certain level of autonomy were given to the elected offical in order to perform their duties, if that power is misused, the official is legally and morally responsible, not the voters who elected them. Perhaps it was a jump in logic on my part, thinking that was close to what you were arguing.
 
Eldritch said:
I do not agree. Certainly, if you allow yourself to be fooled by a candidate, the candidate fooling you probably shares some blame, but nevertheless, you are the one who trusted him, and trust should never be given without being earned.
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With most politicians, their #1 talent is that they are very good con men/women.

We don't have the time to fully investigate them, the vast majority of the population elects them based upon party affiliation or 20-30 second sound bites during the last couple weeks before the election.
 
Eldritch said:
Registration is already wildly easy. Half the U.S. States already offer paid time for staff to vote. Polling stations stay open late enough for people working normal human hours to vote. Most States have easy access to Absentee Ballots so you don't even have to go to the polls and can mail it in well in advance of the election.

All any of this shit requires is someone to actually give a shit in advance of election day, and be willing to think about what steps they have to take to participate. I am not even really interested in the votes of people who cannot summon that much interest and commitment in their community.
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There are countless assumptions that you are careful to overlook so your sanctimonious soundbites pass the red face test.

What about access to information and an independent free press? What about the 4+ hour polling lines in poor and minority communities? What about gerrymandering and the herculean efforts to disguise it? What about election machines that change your vote?

The list goes on and on...

It must take a large effort on your part to maintain your brand of absolutism in the face of observable reality.
 
Scientific questions aside for the moment, I have trouble finding fault with kids that want to have a say, make a difference, etc.

Most of them will be too young to register to vote, so this is just about all they can do.

Also think they can be well-read and still enjoy childhood.
 
cfives said:
Fair enough, my position is that the voters are responsible of electing the officials, and recalling/ not re-electing them if they are unhappy with the officials performance, but the voters are not responsible for the actions of the official while in office.

Power and a certain level of autonomy were given to the elected offical in order to perform their duties, if that power is misused, the official is legally and morally responsible, not the voters who elected them. Perhaps it was a jump in logic on my part, thinking that was close to what you were arguing.
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ctwo said:
Doesn't that put us back where we started?

Oh, that's why I strive to be an elected official, so I can fuck up and blame everyone else. :laughing
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Climber said:
With most politicians, their #1 talent is that they are very good con men/women.

We don't have the time to fully investigate them, the vast majority of the population elects them based upon party affiliation or 20-30 second sound bites during the last couple weeks before the election.
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CoorsLight said:
There are countless assumptions that you are careful to overlook so your sanctimonious soundbites pass the red face test.

What about access to information and an independent free press? What about the 4+ hour polling lines in poor and minority communities? What about gerrymandering and the herculean efforts to disguise it? What about election machines that change your vote?

The list goes on and on...

It must take a large effort on your part to maintain your brand of absolutism in the face of observable reality.
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whoa- why are you all replying to this as serious? i assumed that he is a satyrical/farce poster? is this person actually serious?
 
Does that young lady from Europe have any suggestions or a unique point of view or is she just yelling at people who will forget about her?
 
HappyHighwayman said:
Does that young lady from Europe have any suggestions or a unique point of view or is she just yelling at people who will forget about her?
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It's funny you put it like that. In her speech to the UN, her entire point was that we have known the science regarding climate change for 30 years, the suggestions on what to do have been around for 30 years. Yet due to the abject failure of politicians around the world, it seemingly is up to a 16 year old girl to explain to them how dire the situation is, how their failure to act will doom generations, that we as a species, as a society, may never recover from their lack of action, despite exactly that being explained to politicians around the world by basically the entire scientific community for decades.
 
Yeah, it is so tough to convince kids of things, who have no actual experience, and don't know about Saint Nicholas. :rolleyes We had the Gore propaganda piece that has proved fallible, yet is shown in schools as pure science. I think the whole thing is a rather despicable manipulation.

I won't bring in the science debate further, but besides government control of all things energy, what are the real world solutions purposed by these genius children? Total elimination of cow farts and carbon byproducts, really doesn't get ships across the ocean or airplanes across the United States. Is there any sense of reality to this excuse to cut school and screw with older people's lives?
 
clutchslip said:
Yeah, it is so tough to convince kids of things, who have no actual experience, and don't know about Saint Nicholas. :rolleyes We had the Gore propaganda piece that has proved fallible, yet is shown in schools as pure science. I think the whole thing is a rather despicable manipulation.

I won't bring in the science debate further, but besides government control of all things energy, what are the real world solutions purposed by these genius children? Total elimination of cow farts and carbon byproducts, really doesn't get ships across the ocean or airplanes across the United States. Is there any sense of reality to this excuse to cut school and screw with older people's lives?
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Do you have actual arguments besides strawmanning and absolutes?
 
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