• There has been a recent cluster of spammers accessing BARFer accounts and posting spam. To safeguard your account, please consider changing your password. It would be even better to take the additional step of enabling 2 Factor Authentication (2FA) on your BARF account. Read more here.

Dual-sport recommendations?

JPK

Active member
Joined
Sep 26, 2008
Location
Los Gatos
Moto(s)
N/A
I'm looking to add a thumper to the garage to complement the GSA. Here's what I'm looking for:

1) somewhat modern (i.e., fuel injection)
2) 6-speed
3) good fuel range (not ruling out an aftermarket tank to get there if one is available)
4) reliable
5) easy to service
6) spare parts and accessories readily available
7) reasonably light
8) Sumo conversions available for streety goodness

I've previously had an '09 KLR650 (newer body style) and while it was OK, it was *just* OK. The lack of a 6th gear, primitive fueling, and generally WWII era technology is offputting to me. I wouldn't rule out another KLR but I'm not in love with them.

I've been eyeing the Husky TE610/630's and they look very close to what I'm looking for. My only concern there is that they're now discontinued, and there do not appear to be a lot of dealers around so I have no idea how easy/hard getting spare parts will be down the road.

The BMW 650 thumpers (either the older Dakar, or the newer G650), or possibly the new Certao look pretty good.

KTM's scare me from an ease/frequency of maintenance standpoint.

DR650 looks to be basically in the same league as the KLR650.

What am I missing? Is there some magic answer out there that I have overlooked?
 
A KTM 690 Enduro sounds like exactly what you're looking for. And the maintenance requirements on that bike are no worse than anything else.
 
WR250R fits the description except #3
Acerbis has a 6.6 gal tank. Problem solved. :thumbup

I've been eyeing the Husky TE610/630

KTM's scare me from an ease/frequency of maintenance standpoint.

The Husky is gorgeous... a CRMO steel frame with an awesome 6-speed, if only it weighed less than 300 lbs.; and had a kickstarter and a carburetor for my agricultural needs. :rofl

A KTM 690 Enduro sounds like exactly what you're looking for.
314 lbs. Dry! (3 lbs. lighter than the TE630!):shocker For comparison: The 'Curb' weight for the KLR is 432 lbs. not much lighter than most multi-cylinder ADV big bikes; and the F650GS is 395 lbs. Dry. These are Manufacturer quoted numbers.

Per the cliche statement: "Every motorcycle is a compromise." From a purely utilitarian perspective, ignoring aethetics and 'soul'; the key criteria for each individual should be:

  • Cost (Accept total financial loss, if it's not your primary means of transportation, it's just a hobby)
  • Size (Your ability to pick up and handle the motorcycle alone. The bikes loadbearing capacity or GVWR are above your body weight and load requirements)
  • Comfort (How much saddle time do you need to be able to bear? IronButt eligible?)
  • Durability (Can the bike withstand the loads and terrain you plan to travel on?)
  • Reliability (Can you depend on the machine to get you to your destination safely?)
  • Simplicity (Can you repair it if it breaks down?)

Road use: How much road do you intend to ride your Dual Sport on, and at what (safe) top speeds? This becomes an issue with gearing even with a wide ratio 6-speed gearbox. Interesting thread on 5-speed vs. 6-speed with comparison of wide-ratio transmissions by make/model may be helpful. Do you need to ride high speed US highways for prolonged periods, or can you plan alternate back road routes (65mph max speed)? Can you easily swap out countersprockets for practical dirt and pavement final ratios?

Another consideration for road use is the rear hub: Does it have a cush drive to absorb engine torque? This is a key difference between the KTM 450/525/530 (highly tunes and without cush) and the 620/640/690 LC4 (detuned and with cush).

Fuel Range: Do you plan on trucking/trailering your bike to the riding area and limit your rides to 100 mile loops to and from your support vehicle/refueling points?; or will you ride 300+ miles of pavement and dirt. Are there OEM or aftermarket 4+ Gallon fuel tanks for your make/model to provide 250+ mile fuel range? JustGasTanks will provide a short list of eligible candidates.

Field Expedient Repairs: What will be your access to technical or dealer support on your trips? How isolated will you be? Example: What if the EFI or fuel pump fails; or a radiator is punctured? Unfortunately, I've suffered the experience. If you ride in austere and isolated conditions: it would be prudent to adhere to the K.I.S.S. (Keep it Stupid Simple) principle: Air-cooled, Kick start (even if you have a magic button), carbureted, 5K mile oil change intervals. The larger tubed tires with stiff sidewalls for heavier bikes (140/80-17 and larger) are a pain to manually change with tire irons. The adage: if you can't fix it yourself, you have no business taking it into isolated areas. Note: You can transfer this risk by purchasing insurance with air-evacuation/transportation service.

Manageable Weight: This topic is never portrayed realistically in the Manufacturers' marketing 'Hype' on ADVenture Bikes ("Tourers") which include motorcycles the media have misleading dubbed as 'middleweights" like the BMW Triumph 800XC (473 lbs. Wet), or "lightweights" like the KLR or 390 lbs. Dry BMW G650GS Sertao. The truth is, even if you are a very strong and skilled rider, all of these these models are a handful in the dirt.

​

Carl Adams, the author of The Essential Guide to Dual Sport Motorcycles defines the Dual Sport categories grouped by weight and intended purpose:

  • Lightweight dual-sports weigh about 250 to 300 lb (110 to 140 kg). They have high fenders and ground clearance plus long travel suspension, and usually come with aggressive dirt oriented 'knobbies'. Lightweights are closest to pure dirt bikes and are most at home on rough trails and two-track roads with occasional forays onto pavement.
  • Middleweight dual-sports weigh about 300 to 350 lb (140 to 160 kg). They usually have less suspension travel and ground clearance than lightweights, and often come with tires that offer a compromise between dirt and pavement performance. Middleweights are most at home on smooth trails, graded dirt roads and pavement.
  • Heavyweight dual-sports weigh over 350 lb (160 kg). They are designed primarily for riders who want to travel long distances on pavement with occasional forays onto dirt roads. They usually come with smoother tires that perform better on pavement. These motorcycles are also called adventure or adventure-touring bikes by some manufacturers.

Since you own the "heavyweights": 491 lbs. GSA and a 472 lbs. Weestrom, I assume you are very much aware of the traction and handling limitations in the dirt (even w/ TKC 80's).

I've owned 300+ lbs. Dual Sports: a XR600 and a KTM LC4 in the past. Unless you're built like Scott Summers (AMA GNCC), although great in the desert, they are unweildy for my 5'8", 150 lbs. Welterweight frame in the woods or single track. Any bike that weighs more than 300 lbs. quickly becomes a liability in sand, mud, and single track trails; and will quickly overwhelm the suspension in rough terrain. If you plan on motorcycle camping, then you have to either minimize your load ("Travel light, Freeze at Night") or compromise and opt for larger bikes (nee "Middleweight") and avoid difficult terrain.

This video is a statement against the stereotype ADV/DS motorcycle:
[YOUTUBE]ThO-w9SCM8I[/YOUTUBE]​

If I ride my uberbeast; I have to carefully plan the routes based on my limitations. To the shock (disgust or pity) of many of my American friends on KLR650 and DR650; I frequently ride my 250cc lightweight (<300 lbs. wet and laden) Dual Sport comfortably, with camping gear, to and from riding areas (250+ mile round trips including highway speeds on knobbies), rather than trucking/trailering. Riding a <250cc motorcycle on 2-lane highways is a common sight in most developing countries. I've discovered the light bike can tackle most terrain, distances, and blends in on trips South of the Border. Once in the dirt, the light weight and handling, and manageable power become a significant advantage over the much heavier KLR650, DR650, and F650. I personally prefer riding the small bike much more than the big bike, which is reserved for 75mph+, North American, super slab, multi-day trips.

Contrary to the Ewan McGregor/Charley Boorman image; the opinion for smaller bikes is shared by many RTW and Transcontinental motorcycle travelers that have experienced 'managing' the big bikes outside North America/Western Europe; general consensus (H.U.B.B.), once you learn how to pack just what you really need, you don't need more than a 400cc motorcycle for a RTW trip. (Mondo Enduro, Lois Pryce, etc.).

Payload: Depending on the frame and the engine performance, two motorcycles with identical weight may have different Gross Vehicle Weight Ratings (G.V.W.R.). The GVWR is provided on the DOT required placard. A KLR GVWR is 738 lbs.; only 306 lbs. margin to include the rider(s), 6.1 gallons of fuel, and luggage. In comparison the GVWR of a 348 lbs. KTM 640 Adventure is 803 lbs.: providing a payload of 455 lbs. Aluminum subframes are at a disadavantage. in fact Aluminum twin-spar frames often weigh more than their tubular steel counterparts, (KTM, Husqvarna).

How modern? Highly tuned 4-stroke engines designed to be raced competitively require frequent oil changes, and valve clearance adjustments; and are not designed for durability in the context of a detuned engine designed for commuting (100,000+ miles.) Efficiently 'laying down the power' in limited traction (dirt) conditions becomes difficult as you appoach or exceed 40HP (It's actually limited by the torque). Even in the context of detuned enduro engines; the rideability of an off-road bike is not simply the subject of horsepower; but the tractability and handling. Any bike can and should be upgraded with properly tuned modern suspension, less unsprung weight, ergonomics comfortable for the rider, appropriate final drive (sprocket) ratio, and efficient brakes.

What are you really looking for?: If your requirements and disposition lean towards a 'trailer queen', local area rides, and not much travel in austere condition: you'll probably be happiest with a "plated dirt-bike": highly tuned (40+ HP), <500 mile oil change intervals, EFI, <250 lbs., etc. (Husaberg, KTM, Husqvarna, Aprilia, GasGas, Beta, etc.). This scenario leads to a slippery slope with the argument that you might not even need the license plate, just a Green Sticker (but not Red). The 209 lbs. KTM 200 XC-W has a cult following for a reason.

It seems to me that the "plated dirt bike" crowd embrace a culture for fashionable exotica; which is quite the opposite of motorcycle travelers. Reliability and durability are defined in polar opposite terms by the divergent communities. For example: Motorcycle travelers define engine durability in terms like: Will it last 100,000 miles? or Simplicity: Can the local mechanic in Peshwar rebuild the transmission? Analagous to the comfort criteria for Repli-Roadracers vs. Touring bikes.

You did mention Motard conversions, which is an additional constraint... and also assumes that the risk of frequently laying the bike down in both dirt and pavement, and the negative impact to cost and resale value; is acceptable.

402631101513151674405952034582-X2.jpg
 
Last edited:
Per the cliche comment: "Every motorcycle is a compromise." From a purely utilitarian perspective, ignoring aethetics and 'soul'; the key criteria for each individual should be:

  • Cost (Accept total loss)
  • Size (ability to pick up, loadbearing capacity)
  • Comfort (saddle time)
  • Durability
  • Reliability
  • Simplicity
...

Can you elaborate on that a bit?
 
Seavoyage -- thank you very much for the very well thought-out and detailed response above. I actually have, and have read, the book you reference. I've been doing some thinking on many of the questions you raised, and there are some great questions in there.

Part of the problem stems from the fact that there is no good dirt riding around the bay area, so by necessity any real 'dual-sport' riding will require some highway. I have a Toyota Tundra, but I'm somewhat philosophically opposed to hauling my 'dual-sport' in the back of a truck to get to the dirt.

I'm using the KLR as a measuring stick, since it's what I'm most familiar with. In the dirt, it was pretty good (especially after some suspension work) but it was heavy. On the highway, it was just OK. I'd ridden it out to Clear Creek several times, and it was fine for that amount of highway. I'd even ridden it as far as Las Vegas and back. Let me tell you... 600 miles of highway in one day on a KLR650 just plain SUCKS. Even with a countersprocket change, the thing was not happy above 75 and burned enough oil to let you know this in no uncertain terms.

So what am I looking for? Something that's a little lighter than a KLR, has about the same fuel range, as good or better dirt capability, and better highway performance. That's not asking for too much, is it? :laughing I think that most of the 'more modern' 6xx-class thumpers with fuel injection and 6-speed gear boxes would offer better highway performance, and most of them are lighter than a KLR.

With a wife and two young kids, I'm not looking to go RTW any time soon, but I would be looking to do CDT (or at least parts of it), maybe a Baja trip, as well as weekend trips to Death Valley, etc. so some luggage-carrying capability is also a requirement. Family commitments also mean I won't be out in the dirt every weekend, so this is where the motard-conversion capability comes into play, as it would allow me to get more use out of this bike as a weekend local goaty road hooligan machine.

Thanks again,
John
 
What are you considering to be "real dual-sport" riding?

You want a bike that's better in the dirt AND better on the highway than a KLR? Sounds like the mythical ADV Holy Grail. Let know when you find it so I can get one also.

If you had discomfort riding a KLR on pavement 600 miles, you surely wont find riding a better dirt bike on the highway pleasurable. If your intention if to ride offroad, I suggest you get over the opposition of trucking, forget about riding highway and get yourself an entry level plated dual sport like a DRZ400 or WR250R. A noob on proper dual sport terrain will likely have difficulty on a 610/630/690.

If you intend to ride only dirt roads, get whatever you think is pretty.
 
By "better on the highway" I mean doesn't burn oil like mad at speeds over 70, and has a 6th gear. By that definition, I think that the TE610/630, for example, might be better on the highway and offroad than a KLR.

However, I think that this is really what I need to come to terms with:

"If your intention if to ride offroad, I suggest you get over the opposition of trucking"

I think I may still want something a bit larger than a DRZ400 or WR250R, but the DR650 seems like it may be worth exploring.

BTW - "pretty" has no place in this whole discussion.:rofl
 
I think I may still want something a bit larger than a DRZ400 or WR250R, but the DR650 seems like it may be worth exploring.

Maybe. Maybe not. You still haven't conveyed the type of terrrain you intend to ride and, without knowing that, making suggestions for a bike is futile.

BTW - "pretty" has no place in this whole discussion.:rofl

Your BMW is pretty ugly! :twofinger
 
...the DR650 seems like it may be worth exploring.

I'm just off 85/Saratoga Ave so if you want to try a properly set up DR650 we can meet up someday. I just did the Sheetiron 300 with it and it was perfect for that 330-340 mile ride. Curb weight is supposed to be 366 lbs but it sure doesn't feel that heavy to me. The 2009 KLR I tried felt A LOT heavier and worthless on dirt. For the DR I think the secret is to own two sets of wheels, one with street tires and the other with dirt knobbies. I can swap out wheels in 10-15 minutes depending on what type of ride I'm going to do. The tires make a huge difference, whether you want it for street duty or dirt. If I could only have one set of wheels, I would keep the knobbies - I can put up with those a lot better on the street than I can put up with lousy 'dualsport tires' in the dirt.

Description of my DR is here: http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7323145&postcount=35
 

Attachments

  • 190.jpg
    190.jpg
    163.2 KB · Views: 112
Last edited:
Maybe. Maybe not. You still haven't conveyed the type of terrrain you intend to ride and, without knowing that, making suggestions for a bike is futile.

Longer trips: CDR, Baja, parts of TAT

More locally: Clear Creek, dirt roads in SC mountains, Death Valley, Carizzo Plain, etc.

Hopefully a Sheetiron in there somewhere.

Basically nothing too much harder than dirt roads. Even with some trucking there would likely still be highway involved at times.



Your BMW is pretty ugly! :twofinger

She's beautiful to me! :twofinger
 
Lighter is better!

To the shock (disgust or pity) of many of my American friends on KLR650 and DR650; I frequently ride my 250cc lightweight (<300 lbs. wet and laden) Dual Sport comfortably, with camping gear, to and from riding areas (250+ mile round trips including highway speeds on knobbies), rather than trucking/trailering.

Hey Drew,
Here's a data point that's not shock, disgust or pity from at least one KLR rider, ha! The only reaction I got from seeing your DR250 at the Sheetiron was envy! :ride

Cary and I spent two months in Baja a few years ago, she on my old '95 DR350se (with 5 gallon tank and electric leg) and me on my KLR ... I think we did over 7000 miles that trip ...

We stayed on secondary roads getting there from San Francisco, and generally went 50 mph on pavement ... it was a fun exercise in route finding ... we went through Clear Creek, Carrizo Plain, Death Valley and Anza Borrego to get to Tecate ... took us a week to do what you can do on the slab in a long day, but it was a lot of fun ...more fun than I-5 (I've done that, too, ouch!) Then spent 6 weeks in Baja and took a week to get back from the border ...

dr350.jpg


The '95 DR350se on the dirt roads above Sears Point ...

If I could only have one set of wheels, I would keep the knobbies - I can put up with those a lot better on the street than I can put up with lousy 'dualsport tires' in the dirt.

Boy, me too ... I learned this lesson the hard way ... now I set my bike up for the hardest dirt I'm going to do (good dirt knobbies, low gearing, etc.) and just deal with the dirt set up on the slab ...

See you around the campfire,
-- SFMCjohn
 
Last edited:
Great thread! I'm wrestling with some of these same questions myself as I'm hoping a DS is in my future, after I sell my Hypermotard. Like the OP, I have mixed feelings about the KLR I did own, but OTOH, I'm not interested in trucking a bike (and don't own a truck), so the DS has to be ridden all the way to its destination.

Austin Vince says that the DR350 he rode on his first RTW ride is too big, and now favors something like an XT225, but I don't know that I have the patience for the limitations of a bike like that on the road between my home and wherever I'm riding off-road.

At this point it feels like I'm back to choosing amongst Japanese 650 singles.
 
"less is more"

The only reaction I got from seeing your DR250 at the Sheetiron was envy! :ride

I learned this lesson the hard way ... now I set my bike up for the hardest dirt I'm going to do (good dirt knobbies, low gearing, etc.) and just deal with the dirt set up on the slab ...

See you around the campfire,
-- SFMCjohn

John - Thank you for the compliment. I also prefer to "set my bike up for the hardest dirt I'm going to do and just deal with the dirt set up on the slab". Riding any heavy bike on the dirt is exponentially more demanding than riding a lightweight dirt bike on the street.

The DR250 peformed well on the Sheetiron 300. Thanks to the wide ratio 6-speed gearbox which has a wider gear ratio spread than the DR350 or DRZ400; the bike easily did highway speeds between the dirt sections. The counterbalancer, rubber mounted IMS footpegs, and relatively comfortable Guts Racing seat eliminate most vibrations at high RPM. The light weight, 'slinky' but firm suspension, and mild power make riding off-road and drifting on the fireroads almost too easy, and carved the twisties without issue from the knobbies. I'm quite pleased with this 22-year old DS motorcycle, purchased for $250, which meets my requirements.

Austin Vince says that the DR350 he rode on his first RTW ride is too big, and now favors something like an XT225

I've found the Minimalist Touring (250cc and under) thread on ADVrider absolutely inspiring.

Austin Vince quote:

Autin Vince said:
The dirt road and whacky cross-country sections are the most exhilarating. Would you enter an Enduro on a GS1200? Trail bikes are the ultimate adventure machines; less is more. My ultimate RTW bike would be a Yamaha Serow (unless I was 20 stone or 6ft-plus!)

Note: Austin Vince is married to Lois Pryce. Quotes from Lois Pryce regarding her bike selection for her transcontinental solo rides:
Lois Pryce said:
2003... Lois on the Loose! Alaska to Argentina...

Like everyone planning a long distance motorcycle expedition, my big question was 'what bike?'. I knew I wanted some sort of off-road model as I expected to encounter a variety of terrains and road surfaces, but like many short riders, I found the seat heights of the popular overland machines off-putting. I was also keen to choose a bike that was light enough to pick up on my own; and if I was ever to find myself squashed beneath it, be able to wriggle free. Having once been pinned to a spot of London tarmac under my old Beezer I was keen to avoid a similar plight. On that occasion I was fortunate enough to be rescued by a couple of sturdy pensioners, but, I wondered, would I be so lucky in the Atacama Desert? After much deliberation I decided upon a nippy little trail bike - the Yamaha XT225 Serow. So it was time to jack in my boring office job and hit the road!

2006... Red Tape & White Knuckles - Africa beckons...

The Serow served me well over the 20,000 miles of my Americas trip but when it came to riding the length of Africa a few years later I took the advice of all those well-meaning BMW riders I kept meeting, and opted for a bigger, more powerful machine - The Yamaha TTR250. Oh yes, those extra 25cc make all the difference! I couldn't have asked for a better, more reliable bike for what turned out to be a truly challenging ride, crossing the Sahara and tackling the punishing terrain of the Congo and Angola. Phew!

San Francisco and bound for South America

Would I choose the Suzuki DR650SE again? As a lightweight and inexpensive choice, it is hard to beat. To keep in that spirit, the Dirt Bags saddle bags keep the bike light and costs down. Where the bike really shines though is in reliability and serviceability. Frankly, had I done the carburetor rework as I should have, I would have gone the entire journey without any mechanical problems.

The closest bike to the Suzuki DR650SE is the Kawasaki KLR650. While the old model seems perfectly fine, at least from what I have seen, I would suggest staying away from the updated model. In several South American shops did I see dead and abandoned 2008+ Kawasaki KLR650s.

In the future, what bike would I choose? The personal advantage the DR has for me is that I am now intimately familiar with it and working on it is dead simple. For a trip that stays mostly on asphalt, I would likely choose the Suzuki DL650 V-Strom. It is much more comfortable, will cruise at higher speeds yet is still cheap and reliable. A low mileage used one should easily be gotten for $4500 or less.

A trip involving a lot more dirt makes the KTM 690 a fun choice, with 50% more horsepower while weighing 15lbs less. Probably coming in at $5500, it is a bit more expensive but seems to be dead reliable without the hassle of a carburator yet sporting a 6th gear.

Travel Blog: http://jmkubr.livejournal.com/

4839742290_d42c392732_b.jpg

Austin Vince Top 10 Tips for (RTW) trip prep and planning...:

Austin Vince said:
1) It's a thousand times easier, safer and cheaper than you think

2) Take the newest bike you can afford (unless you’re a wizard mechanic!)

3) Leave with new...

a) Chain/Spkts (fanciest you can find, don't go 'budget')
b) discs and pads
c) Wheel Bearings
d) Michelin 4mm tubes (Thee most HD ever)
e) Plugs
That'll get you 10,000 miles before you have to do a thing

4) Also take... a Leatherman, 12V air-pump, puncture repair kit, Motion pro combo tyre-lever Motion Pro Trail tool, tow rope, army surplus bags for luggage lined with thin drybags, poncho, thermarest, bivi bag, sleeping bag - no need for a tent

5) If you just want fun and adventure make it easy on yourself. Make Vladivostock your goal; one visa, one road, 12,500 miles, no jeopardy. Simple

6) If the above sounds too easy for you add in some central Asian republics. This means extra visa aggro but stunning vistas in return (watch motosyberia for inspiration). Still too easy? Try doing the length of Africa’s west coast route

7) If travelling in a team, aim to rough camp as much as possible; if riding solo, stay in hotels so you’ll meet more people

8) The dirt road and whacky cross-country sections are the most exhilarating. Would you enter an Enduro on a GS1200? Trail bikes are the ultimate adventure machines; less is more. My ultimate RTW bike would be a Yamaha Serow (unless I was 20 stone or 6ft-plus!)

9) Leave with one pannier totally empty - you'll realise why on the road

10) You'll never be able to be 'prepared' for 10,000-mile expeditions until you do one. Don't worry about trying to see off every calamity, you'll just go mental and never leave! Expect delays and dramas and then relish them. That's when all the cool stuff happens.
 
Last edited:
Longer trips: CDR, Baja, parts of TAT

More locally: Clear Creek, dirt roads in SC mountains, Death Valley, Carizzo Plain, etc.

Hopefully a Sheetiron in there somewhere.

Basically nothing too much harder than dirt roads. Even with some trucking there would likely still be highway involved at times.

Yeah, a GS can do all of that competently even without knobbies. I'm failing to see the need for another bike since the GS meets most of the criteria you've outlined.
 
Yeah, a GS can do all of that competently even without knobbies. I'm failing to see the need for another bike since the GS meets most of the criteria you've outlined.

Agreed - the GS can do all of that. It's not so much a "need" as it is a "want". Sometimes I'm in the mood for the rolling barkalounger, and other times I'm in the mood for something a bit lighter.

throw some TKC on the gsa and call it good. just be ready to get your nice bike dirty. :teeth

I've been looking around for a set of used cast wheels for the GS, just so I can have some streety tires on the cast wheels and put some TKC's on the wire wheels. That would be a pretty sweet setup.
 
Back
Top