Any archers in the house?

[Hoho]

What style do you want to shoot?

Well, I like shooting for accuracy, not hunting. Although I am not averse to hunting too. I used to compete with air pistols back in college, so competing at something like that would be something I would eventually like to try.

 

[ScorpioVI]

Well, I like shooting for accuracy, not hunting. Although I am not averse to hunting too. I used to compete with air pistols back in college, so competing at something like that would be something I would eventually like to try.

Hunting is about accuracy too.

There's no shortage of archery competitions in the South Bay. We're blessed with 5 archery clubs/ranges and 3 indoor ranges within a 30-mile radius from the South Bay.

FITA, Indoor, Field, 3D there's usually a league or competition going on somewhere. I compete mainly in Field (900 & 560) and 3D, both with Black Mountain Bowmen and Bowhunters Unlimited.

Figure out what style you're going into (recurve or compound) and we can go from there.

 

[Hoho]

Hunting is about accuracy too.

haha that's true... I was thinking more in terms of pistol shooting, precision shooting vs practical shooting though. Field shooting is more like my style, I think, but I don't know enough yet about the others to make a decision, but let's stick with field shooting first. I still need to lookup more information about the others.

.
Figure out what style you're going into (recurve or compound) and we can go from there.

I'd probably start with recurve then compound later. Does that sound like a good progression? We used recurves the first time, and that was fun. Compound bows look awesome though. Any particular advantage to starting with one or the other? For the completions you join, do you use a recurve or compound bow?

 

[ScorpioVI]

I'd probably start with recurve then compound later. Does that sound like a good progression? We used recurves the first time, and that was fun. Compound bows look awesome though. Any particular advantage to starting with one or the other? For the completions you join, do you use a recurve or compound bow?

They're two totally different branches of the same tree. The world's top compound archer (Reo Wilde) cannot shoot recurve well, and vice versa. You might be using the same muscles, but it's a different shot process altogether. This does not mean you're not an exemption to the rule, but generally competitive archers stick to one school or the other.

I shoot compound for competitions, and do maybe 95% of my shooting with compounds. Occasionally I'll break out the recurve just "for funsies" but mainly the recurve is for loaning to my friends who are interested in trying out archery.

Just food for thought, if accuracy is your thing, then you'll want to go into compounds. I came into archery from a firearms competition background (USPSA, IDPA, 3 Gun, High Power). The first bow I picked up was a recurve just for it's simplicity. I spent about 3 weeks working with it and it just wasn't cutting it in the accuracy department. I want to be in the 10-ring, not just happy that I'm on paper. It takes a long time and a lot of training (coaching) to be good with a recurve. Time that I don't have and honestly time I'd rather spend hitting the 10-ring.

I bought a compound and was hitting Xs that same afternoon. It has a sight just like a rifle, need to adjust your group, crank your sight over. Takes all the voodoo out of archery and turns it into something this infantryman can understand, ballistics. Within a week I attended my first 3D competition, my group of 4 was me with my compound and 3 long-time recurve shooters (between the 3 of them they probably had at least years of archery experience). Despite shooting my targets from 5-10 yards further back, I managed to beat two of them on points. Technology trumps experience, I was sold on compounds for life.

If you want an idea of the disparity of accuracy between compounds/recurves/longbows/primitives. Just take a look at the scores on 2nd leg of the ongoing Bowhunters Unlimited 3D League (I'm currently ranked 3rd in the CR category).

With that said, there is some appeal with stickbows. When you're not so concerned with hitting an X instead of a 9, stickbows can be fun for it's sheer simplicity. Easy to shoot, high rate-of-fire, easy to pull arrows out of bales, increased delight at actually hitting your target.

 

[Hoho]

Excellent! This is just what I needed. I've only done one session with the recurve at this time, and I thought I shot decently for a first timer. We'll see how it goes next time I hit the range. I'll have to see if they have any compound bows that I can try out too.

They're two totally different branches of the same tree. The world's top compound archer (Reo Wilde) cannot shoot recurve well, and vice versa. You might be using the same muscles, but it's a different shot process altogether. This does not mean you're not an exemption to the rule, but generally competitive archers stick to one school or the other.

I shoot compound for competitions, and do maybe 95% of my shooting with compounds. Occasionally I'll break out the recurve just "for funsies" but mainly the recurve is for loaning to my friends who are interested in trying out archery.

Just food for thought, if accuracy is your thing, then you'll want to go into compounds. I came into archery from a firearms competition background (USPSA, IDPA, 3 Gun, High Power). The first bow I picked up was a recurve just for it's simplicity. I spent about 3 weeks working with it and it just wasn't cutting it in the accuracy department. I want to be in the 10-ring, not just happy that I'm on paper. It takes a long time and a lot of training (coaching) to be good with a recurve. Time that I don't have and honestly time I'd rather spend hitting the 10-ring.

I bought a compound and was hitting Xs that same afternoon. It has a sight just like a rifle, need to adjust your group, crank your sight over. Takes all the voodoo out of archery and turns it into something this infantryman can understand, ballistics. Within a week I attended my first 3D competition, my group of 4 was me with my compound and 3 long-time recurve shooters (between the 3 of them they probably had at least years of archery experience). Despite shooting my targets from 5-10 yards further back, I managed to beat two of them on points. Technology trumps experience, I was sold on compounds for life.

If you want an idea of the disparity of accuracy between compounds/recurves/longbows/primitives. Just take a look at the scores on 2nd leg of the ongoing Bowhunters Unlimited 3D League (I'm currently ranked 3rd in the CR category).

With that said, there is some appeal with stickbows. When you're not so concerned with hitting an X instead of a 9, stickbows can be fun for it's sheer simplicity. Easy to shoot, high rate-of-fire, easy to pull arrows out of bales, increased delight at actually hitting your target.

 

[wannabe]

Excellent! This is just what I needed. I've only done one session with the recurve at this time, and I thought I shot decently for a first timer. We'll see how it goes next time I hit the range. I'll have to see if they have any compound bows that I can try out too.

Just to add to what Alan said, the great thing about recurves is the simplicity. When you miss, you know that it is 100% your fault. When shooting compounds, it's easy to get caught up in the technology spiral where you keep messing with your bow and buying newer and 'better' things to make yourself more accurate. I was caught in that cycle for a while until I asked one of the guys at the range for some advice on a new doohicky for my bow. He looked at me, sighed, and said, "At some point, you just gotta shoot your bow." I've been very tempted, but I haven't bought anything for my bow since.

 

[dmaxAl]

Just to add to what Alan said, the great thing about recurves is the simplicity. When you miss, you know that it is 100% your fault. When shooting compounds, it's easy to get caught up in the technology spiral where you keep messing with your bow and buying newer and 'better' things to make yourself more accurate. I was caught in that cycle for a while until I asked one of the guys at the range for some advice on a new doohicky for my bow. He looked at me, sighed, and said, "At some point, you just gotta shoot your bow." I've been very tempted, but I haven't bought anything for my bow since.

+1.

A primitive archer focus' on form when the form goes off.
A compound archer reaches for the Allen keys..

Anyone heading to Steven's Creek this weekend? Was thinking of missing horribly maybe tomorrow morning.

 

[Hoho]

Just to add to what Alan said, the great thing about recurves is the simplicity. When you miss, you know that it is 100% your fault. When shooting compounds, it's easy to get caught up in the technology spiral where you keep messing with your bow and buying newer and 'better' things to make yourself more accurate. I was caught in that cycle for a while until I asked one of the guys at the range for some advice on a new doohicky for my bow. He looked at me, sighed, and said, "At some point, you just gotta shoot your bow." I've been very tempted, but I haven't bought anything for my bow since.

+1.

A primitive archer focus' on form when the form goes off.
A compound archer reaches for the Allen keys..

Anyone heading to Steven's Creek this weekend? Was thinking of missing horribly maybe tomorrow morning.

That sounds about right.

Will starting with a recurve to get the form and basics down first, then switching to a compound bow be a good plan or, should I just go to compound bows already? Alan makes a good argument for compound bows that appeals to me, but the proper form is important to me too. Arrgh. This is gonna be fun.

 

[woot]

Picked up my newbie recurve today, 68" 28#. Spent about 3 hours out at my local paper range shooting at 30m. My first three shots hit the wood instead of the hay bales. All I could thinking of was breaking these brand new arrows.

This being my first time shooting a bow, I had to learn from scratch. By the end of the day I was getting 5 out of 6 shots in the yellow ring which made me feel pretty good. Scary moment of the day occurred when I was searching for my anchor point and I drew it back to my ear lobe. Lofted the arrow clear over the target box. Ooops.

So my newbie questions: Do arrows usually seem to crank significantly in some direction before straightening out? It seems like it would go 45 degrees off course, then right itself and hit at about the same spot. Both my friend and I were wondering about this. Please critique anything you see me doing wrong!

 

[ScorpioVI]

Will starting with a recurve to get the form and basics down first, then switching to a compound bow be a good plan or, should I just go to compound bows already? Alan makes a good argument for compound bows that appeals to me, but the proper form is important to me too. Arrgh. This is gonna be fun.

Form and basics can be learned with either. Does it matter if you start on a riding street or a dirt? They're both riding, but the applications are just slightly different. I will say that form is more important with stickbows, but just because compound shooters have mechanical aids does not mean they have no form, both schools absolutely require it. I would argue that the compound gives you the proper form faster, you have a fixed draw-length, you'll quickly figure out what your anchor points are, you've got a level that tells you if you're canting the bow, and if you're torquing you'll know it immediately. Mistakes (misses) are easier to diagnose and thusly easier to fix with the compound whereas with a stickbow there's so many variables that rely on the feel of the shot.

One argument in favor of starting out with recurve is how cheap it is. Especially if you don't yet know if archery is a long-term thing for you. You can get started in recurves for about a $250 start-up cost, and you'll have all the equipment necessary to have a good time at the range. Starting out with compounds will easily cost you twice that. It's also a lot easier to sell used recurves than used compounds, compounds being much more personalized to each individual archer.

So my newbie questions: Do arrows usually seem to crank significantly in some direction before straightening out? It seems like it would go 45 degrees off course, then right itself and hit at about the same spot. Both my friend and I were wondering about this. Please critique anything you see me doing wrong!

Congrats on the bow dude!

Start close. 30 yards is a bit far to shoot starting out. Start at 10 yards, working on getting a good grouping, when you're consistently hitting the 10 ring and forming tight groups, then add another 5 yards.

Let's start with your anchor point. What is your anchor point? You look way overdrawn in that picture. Your fingers should be finding a fixed point on your face (index or middle finger to corner of mouth, knuckle on cheek bone, etc.). Your string should be contacting your nose, your mouth or both. The bones of your draw forearm should be in line with the arrow. Your draw hand is too far back on your face causing your elbow to drop.

See: Red and yellow lines should be pointing the same way.

Let's take a look at Brady Ellison's form (hey strive to be the best right? ):

You want to see a consistent anchor point? Type in Brady Ellison at Google's Image Search and you'll see the exact same anchor in hundreds of pictures. Note how his nose and mouth and chin are all contacting the string.


As for your arrow kicking out. I can't tell in the picture, are you shooting off the shelf or is there a flipper rest on that thing? It looks like your vane orientation is right in the picture, cock-feather right, but are all your arrows' nocks oriented the same way? One possibility is one of your vanes hitting the shelf/riser if you're not nocked properly.

You could also be torquing the bow causing the vanes to hit the riser. It looks like you have a death grip on that thing. Rig up a bow sling or a finger sling and relax your grip. Notice how Brady's fingers doesn't wrap all the way around the grip, he's using a finger sling so he's not grabbing at the bow on release, causing torque.

Are your arrows spined properly? Give us the model name/specs of the arrows you're using.

Here's a quick tutorial to get you started on form: http://www.theweebsite.com/tempus/archery/step01.html

You'll also want to get acquainted with this PDF. This is your bible.
http://www.eastonarchery.com/img/downloads/software/tuning_guide.pdf

 

[ScorpioVI]

Anyone heading to Steven's Creek this weekend? Was thinking of missing horribly maybe tomorrow morning.

Sleeping in the morning, will likely hit BMB in the afternoon though.

Am I the only one that hates the bales at Bowhunters? They're either ridiculously stiff that I have a bitch of a time getting my arrows out, or they're so shot out that my arrows pass through and fuck up my vanes.

I'm 95% convinced that the trad fogeys in charge of that range do that on purpose to discourage us compounders from using that range.

 

[woot]

Sweet! Thanks for the pointers!

We are gonna head out and shoot a little more, and I'll take another pic showing my "new and improved form." As for the arrows they are: Gold tip expedition hunters. This is what the shop said would be best for us.

Their data:
5575 Black 8.2 .400" 32" .295" .246" 237.8 gr. 85 - 100gr

I notice in the pictures of the pros that the arrow is drawn all the way back to the rest, ours seem to protrude farther than the rest by a few inches. Even my friend who is two inches taller has the same protrusion. The shop said that these were the arrow weight/lengths needed for our poundage/draw length. (They took us into their range and had us draw a few arrows to determine length) Are the arrows too long?

Well off to the range for us, I'll try to loosen my grip and move the anchor point forward. Lets see

Again, thanks for the help!

 

[ScorpioVI]

Their data:
5575 Black 8.2 .400" 32" .295" .246" 237.8 gr. 85 - 100gr

Oh geez, what shop sold you those arrows?

That first number "5575" translates to "suitable for 55# to 75# bows". Way too stiff for your 28# recurve. Your arrows aren't flexing enough. See: Archer's Paradox.

I shoot a 4560 .403 spine for my 60# compound to give you an idea. Without consulting a spine chart, ideally you'd have arrows in the .500s spine range.

When you bought your arrows, did you notice them cut it at all? Was there an arrow saw in the premises? 32" is the factory length of those arrows. They then need to be cut to your draw length. It's not really that big of a deal to have arrows that are too long, you just lose velocity. In your case cutting those arrows down to the correct length for you would make them even stiffer.

 

[dmaxAl]

I'm 95% convinced that the trad fogeys in charge of that range do that on purpose to discourage us compounders from using that range.

Oh geez, what shop sold you those arrows?

That first number "5575" translates to "suitable for 55# to 75# bows". Way too stiff for your 28# recurve. Your arrows aren't flexing enough. See: Archer's Paradox.

I shoot a 4560 .403 spine for my 60# compound to give you an idea. Without consulting a spine chart, ideally you'd have arrows in the .500s spine range.

When you bought your arrows, did you notice them cut it at all? Was there an arrow saw in the premises? 32" is the factory length of those arrows. They then need to be cut to your draw length. It's not really that big of a deal to have arrows that are too long, you just lose velocity. In your case cutting those arrows down to the correct length for you would make them even stiffer.

Yup, .500 spine would be right. Is probably also why a prior comment about the arrows kicking out, they are waaaay overspined and relying only on the fletching to bring em back in line.

Bare shaft tuning will tell you if you are spined correctly - strip the feathers off an arrow and shoot it. It should hit the target more or less square, and where you were aiming at. If it doesn't, arrow spine is wrong.

Also, if shooting off the shelf, nock/fletch alignment can make a lot of difference I've found. Play around with where the cock feather is and watch how your groups and poi is. Fun fine tuning!

 

[woot]

Well crap...

The shop was this place: Frontline Archery

We spent the whole day today out shooting, I'm pretty exhausted. Being out in the sun that long with no shade took its toll. I think I went through 6-7 bottles of water and never had to pee. Still had a blast though.

Things I notice off the bat: his anchor point is much lower. Mine just moved forward to my lip, his is down on his chin. This makes the string press into his mouth/nose. Mine just barely touched my nose. His bow hand thumb isn't wrapping around the bow like mine.

The arrows did noticeably move less if I opened my hand like that, but still danced a little. How bad are the arrows we bought? Ie. Is it worth it to go and purchase new ones? Or just learn with these. I know we will eventually break them/lose them. (One lost already)

I'm sure the shop we went to didn't take us seriously because we are part of this "wave" of people coming in. We're also only purchasing "cheap" bows to get started with. I can't say that I blame them, even if they are wrong as to why we showed up. I swear they asked 3 times what movie made us want to shoot, when truthfully it was this thread that made me wanna start. So I'm sure their mindset was "get them out the door, they'll plink around for a week and never touch it again."

 

[ScorpioVI]

Today's pic is looking much better already!

His anchor point is lower because he's using a sight. He's also shooting at 75 yards so anchoring low helps. Don't worry about that, just find a consistent anchor point that works for you, everybody's built and shoots differently.

Are you gap shooting or shooting instinctive?

The arrows are bad, but I wouldn't worry about replacing them now. You said it, you're gonna break or lose them sooner or later. You'll definitely want to get the right spine and the right length for your next batch of arrows though, I guarantee your groups will improve dramatically. Those arrows look at least 5" too long, a good rule is your arrow should be sticking out 1"-1.5" past your rest.

And yea you're absolutely right about the shops' mindset. That's happening all over, even with the shops I frequent. They just don't have the time or personnel to spend a lot of time with each customer. Or they're lazy or assholes that just want to dump stuff that's been sitting on the shelves. It is very easy for the shop to just sell you crap and get you out the door figuring you won't know the difference anyway.

I end up "fixing" a lot of the newbies that come out to my range. They buy their bows from the shop and hit the range without guidance or training, just like I did when I started out. It's all good.

 

[woot]

I kind of use the tip of the arrow as a "sight" and I figure out where I have to aim that. I guess that's gap shooting? Time to read those links you gave me.

My friend, uses instincts to shoot. Which I doubt he'll ever change since he is on this whole "the way cavemen did things" trip.

 

[wannabe]

For what it's worth, the arrow length is not really that critical. If your arrows are too long, it just makes them heavier. But, longer arrows do fly straighter. That's why some target shooters use full length arrows with super heavy tips. That combination helps make the arrows fly straight. They just fly slower.

I agree with Alan. Just shoot with what you have for now.

Your anchor point definitely is much better today.

 

[ScorpioVI]

I kind of use the tip of the arrow as a "sight" and I figure out where I have to aim that. I guess that's gap shooting?

Yea that's gapping. Line up the string with the point to get your windage then figure out where on the target you want to "aim" the point. As your range increases/decreases, your "gap" from the bullseye changes higher/lower. It's a good way to develop a consistent shot when you're just starting out.

 

[Hoho]

Where would you suggest to go for lessons? I'm in Sunnyvale, and we tried Palomo Archery, but the second time we went, they were so busy that we did not get a chance to get any instruction at all.