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Are open face helmets stupid?

beginner said:
And race track surfaces may be a lot different from road paving,

I'm imaging that race suits have hard plastic parts in the most likely wear areas and those are going to be effective against pavement.

How long leather lasts against pavement is going to have a lot to with the microtexture of the surface. With asphalt that's determined by the type of aggregate and how the surface is finished.
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You really do live in a different world. Microtexture? Really?
 
well I think if you're capable of generating a force field around yourself when you're riding a bike, open face is fine.

All I can say is, from my own experience.

MSF Class: Took a bee in the neck, deflected from the bottom of my full face helmet. It grazed my neck at 20 mph. that was fine.

Last Month: I took a grasshopper, (gauging by the explosion of intestines and guts and blood) in the middle of my visor, at 75mph on 101 Southbound. I would've been dead, because that thing would've hit me in the nose at 75mph + whatever speed it was flying at. The impact would've made me crash because I can deal with cagers who can't drive because drivers license is too easy to get in this country, but I can't deflect the impact of that bug and still go straight in my lane.. :|
 
Gnarly Cranium said:
People on public roads crash without road rash pretty often too. If leather was so ineffective, why would we be using it?
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Mother nature spent millions of years perfecting skins of all kinds. Leather seems to be the first choice when risk is highest and cost is no object so it's probably the best. Still, leather wears away fast or slow depending on surface texture and a few other things. It's worth understanding pavement texture.
Stormdragon said:
You really do live in a different world. Microtexture? Really?
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Motorcycle riding is a lot about traction. Road builders spend a lot of time on texture issues. Sometimes what they do is good for riding, sometimes not so good.
 
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beginner said:
A common home bench grinder turning at 3250 rpm with a 6" wheel has a surface speed of 60 mph. Put any kind of motorcycle glove fabric on that you like and watch what happens. A paved road is pretty much a gigantic bench grinder.
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I've crashed three times at speed on pavement in the same pair of gloves. Pavement is not like a grinding wheel. If you can't tell the difference running your finger over the road vs a grinding wheel it doesn't matter what gloves you wear because you can't feel anything anyway.
 
Gnarly Cranium said:
Being able to use both hands makes a world of difference, even when you're just buying a bag of chips. My head is by far the most comfortable, handy place to carry my helmet. I'm not comfortable leaving it in the helmet lock most of the time, since I'm usually in the middle of the city with tons of people around. Also, if I'm carrying my helmet by the strap, I need to avoid carrying it on the side where my keys hang on my belt so it doesn't get scratched. Having a flip-face has really made my day to day life significantly more convenient. I mean, that's just me of course.

An example-- on an average day going to work, even if I don't take my backpack, I gotta dig for meter change to start. I have handy belt pockets for this, so I don't have to juggle a wallet. Then sometimes I get some mexican food for lunch later, gotta balance that box so it doesn't spill, then go next door for a soda, gotta get into my pockets for cash of course, then carry these items to the store where I work... AND THEN, while carrying stuff... I have to pull out my keys to open the door to the store. If I just leave the helmet on my head for this 5-10min process, there's a lot less cussing involved.

I could really use a top box though, if I could just ditch the helmet there that would be awesome!
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I fail to see what any of this has to do with flip face vs standard chin bar.

Do the Mexicans shoot at you if they can't see your mouth or what?
 
Aluisious said:
I fail to see what any of this has to do with flip face vs standard chin bar.

Do the Mexicans shoot at you if they can't see your mouth or what?
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Er, yes you could keep the helmet on even if it doesn't flip open, I suppose. But with it open I don't have to yell, I guess? That and the shooting Mexicans thing. :p

BillSmith said:
Heck, there's people that would point out the convertible we drive and say, "No roll bar!"
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I see those 'click it or ticket' signs and I'm like OMG I HAVE NO SEAT BELT ON! :laughing

I guess it sorta boils down to the costs vs the benefits. The cost of having an extra bit of hardware on your helmet, when you're already wearing a helmet anyway, amounts to just a bit of extra weight and the personal sensations of the thing-- while the benefit, increasing the helmet's protectiveness by a huge margin and shielding one of the most important parts of the body, is big. So I guess it seems sorta crazy or stupid to not wear a full face because the cost/benefit ratio is so dramatic.

beginner said:
Mother nature spent millions of years perfecting skins of all kinds.
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Exactly. And it works. Won't last forever if a truck is dragging you miles down the road, obviously, but it is effective in the conditions of a crash. Pavement type/surface does not vary enough to be a significant factor. If you can find some actual examples of quality leather failing due to abrasion in a crash, let me know cause I'd like to see it.
 
TheRiddler said:
On the gloves comments, this is how you break your wrists or collarbone. All that force has to go somewhere. It's better to land on your elbows and shoulders that have padding (you have a padded jacket, right?).
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No racer or anyone who has shattered a shoulder and/or a collarbone would agree with that. Most often it's landing on your shoulder -or your collarbone :)-that breaks your collarbone. Motogpers use their hands and elbows to fall all the time, they just don't do it like stiff stick figures, they bend em. And this is a helmet OP so why are we talking about gloves?.

Entoptic said:
Speaking from experience here! I crashed at 70 miles an hour and after sliding 120 feet i took my helmet and look at it.
Needless to say my friend is now wearing a full face helmet.
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The guys who fall and save face are the guys OP needs to heed. :thumbup

beginner said:
Hands are rarely going to be effective face protection. Face and skull protection ends up being protection for the rest of you.
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+1 Nothing like injury to parts of your body you use most often to make you appreciate what you lost.:thumbup Also a guarantee that someone will pat you on the head, kiss you, or want to shake your hand.:laughing
 
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rodr said:
Big difference! The full face feels more confining,
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Only if your used to an open face. The same way I feel "naked" trying to ride with an open face.
I went from open face to full face 10years ago and hated it [felt claustrophobic] for the first two months. Now you couldn't pay me to ride with an open face [unless I'm cruising at maximum 35mph around Laguna Seca during the GP weekend]

has less field of view
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Hm, pretty much any eye protection I know of that you need to wear with an open face has less field of view than any decent helmet made in the last 5years. Guaranteed those glasses you are wearing in your avatar restrict your peripheral vision more than any decent Suomy helmet by itself [as long as it fits properly]

fogging in cold weather is suddenly an issue,
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So it is with goggles or glasses. Either way, a 19.99 Fog City cures fogging completely on any full face helmet.


and I can't easily swivel my head as much as before (top of jacket meets bottom of helmet).

:)
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Thats a problem with your jacket more than the helmet if you ask me.
 
BillSmith said:
Half helmet is to full face, as motorcycle is to car.

I'll make quick trips off the bike in my flip helmet, but not into a bank. Don't think that would be wise.
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Wait wait I know this: half a helmet is to a faceful as half a face is to....
well, dammit if this becomes an IQ test then I'm not playing.:mad

I do agree with the bank thing. They hate it when I come into the bank with my dark visored helmet on making finger guns and peew peeew noises.:teeth
 
rodr said:
Since I started riding again in March of 2008 I've been using a Scorpion EXO-200 open face (3/4) helmet (see avatar). This month I got a Suomy full face.

Big difference! The full face feels more confining, has less field of view, fogging in cold weather is suddenly an issue, and I can't easily swivel my head as much as before (top of jacket meets bottom of helmet).

The feeling of openness, being closer to the world around me, is a huge part of why I like motorcycling. The new helmet seems to take some of that away. Certainly I don't like the thought of having my lower jaw ground off in an accident, but OTOH these other drawbacks (fog, vision, etc.) add their own risk.

Discuss. :)
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Hey, whatever works cowboy! :laughing Cops use 3/4 helmets.
Don't tell any of the little ATGATT Nazis 'round here, but I rode without a helmet for years, and it was real tough going to a full face. (An old Bell Starr!)
All yer concerns are valid; they fog, they're heavy, and they can get messed up wit yer gear. I have the anti fog spray, which helps, and a Fog City on another face shield. The Fog City works good, but it's still kind of funky to look through, and narrows your view even more. (I'm gonna try a Respro as soon as I can figure out where the hell to get one?)
Basically you just have to get used to the thing. (If you want?) Use it for short rides on roads you're familiar with until you build up yer neck muscles, and get used to it. Play with the vents and get used to crack'in it open all the time.
Now, I couldn't see riding without one, had it save my ugly-ass jaw at least once. :thumbup

Good luck,
 
beginner said:
And race track surfaces may be a lot different from road paving, and tracks have big clear grassy areas to slide on to and may be no lamp posts or curbs or soccor moms in SUVs. I'm imaging that race suits have hard plastic parts in the most likely wear areas and those are going to be effective against pavement. How long leather lasts against pavement is going to have a lot to with the microtexture of the surface. With asphalt that's determined by the type of aggregate and how the surface is finished. Race tracks may be much friendier to leather than a lot of public roads.
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Some racetrack pavement is worse than that of many public roads. The road course at Talladega is like riding on a wood rasp. Racetrack surfaces are chosen for traction, wear resistance, resistance to wrinkling under the tremendous forces of cars braking into turns and drainage. Wear on motorcycle leathers isn't a factor in the design criteria. Leathers are designed to withstand racetrack surfaces; racetracks are not designed around the vulnerabilities of leathers.

Some leathers do incorporate plastic armor. Good hard armor can do a fine job of protecting the rider, but it can also result in the destruction of the leather in that part of the suit. When a rider falls on pavement wearing hard armor, the armor pinches the leather between itself and the pavement, concentrating the peak force on a very small area. Soft armor, in the same situation, will deform and spread the load across a much greater surface area; sometimes 6x as much. Good soft armor will be every bit as effective at dispersing felt impact over a broad area for the rider as hard armor is.

A rider rarely spends very long sliding on a knee of an elbow, as he normally begins to either tumble or have a long slow skidding roll. In both cases, new leather is being presented to the asphalt as the slide progresses. A given bit of leather must resist wearing through only for the duration it is sliding on the road. Leather that is backed by hard armor can fail almost instantly, where the same piece of leather backed by soft armor can survive because it has much less pressure per square inch bearing on it.

If the leather fails but the underlying armor holds up and remains in place, this may be of no concern to the rider until the slide stops. If the rider gets through he crash unhurt, he'll be happy about that, but perhaps bummed that his suit is rendered useless. This is a practical matter for club racers who sometimes experience a Saturday practice crash. The nature of the armor in the suit can make the difference between the rider getting to race on Sunday of packing up to go home, simply because his suit was wrecked.
 
Antarius said:
Some people absolutely refuse to go out in anything less than a full aerostitch or one piece suit and full face helmet, where others might be willing to wear jeans, sweatshirt and half helmet for short rides and more gear for longer rides.
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This is a false economy. Accidents happen more often on short trips, unless the trip is long enough that fatigue becomes a factor.
 
If they're good enough for cops...
 
I'm probably in the minority again as I find the full face helmets MORE comfortable, and I don't mean as in level of protection, peace of mind etc, but actually physically more comfortable. I think it has something to do with the cheek design differences between open face and full.

Visibility has never been an issue and I can't sense the vision advantages of an open face, and I've worn one a few times, but I think that might be because on a sportbike with an aggressive riding position, you're head is tilted forward and you look up thru the visor area so downward blockage becomes less of an issue. I actually have to look straight down while riding to remember there's even something in front of my chin at all! :)

On another note, I still have my Shoei X-11 from my accident 2 years ago, the front chin area is ground down impressively well and the shell of the chin area there is shattered.

I don't think I would EVER wear an open face helmet ever, but that's just me, and there are many very very effective ways of dealing with fog (that don't involves popping the visor up at traffic signals) and several brands are known more for their sideward and downward opening of the visor area than others. I found Shoei's to be the widest viewing area, and Sharks to be the smallest (though still perfectly fine)
 
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