BARF Militia

[sohijiro]

did i just read you say "have" your LTR? hahahhah

i love that rifle! that rifle made my rethink my rifle, because shooting yours was so easy and accurate, and mine was crap compared to it

 

[Ratters]

Don't get me wrong, I love the thing, but that whole setup cost about $1200. No where near the range of true custom jobbies.

I liked your setup as well. Seemed to shoot just fine. I've been tempted to get one of the accutrigger ones, but the PSS would be more of an aesthetic complement to the LTR.

 

[sohijiro]

yeah i know, i wish i got a pss as my first rifle too, but hey i guess ill work with what i have

 

[Chuci]

Anyone own an HK P2000? I tried it out last night and it fit my hand well, shot well, and was just plain easy to use (for me). I'd like to hear some feedback, positive and negative, on this HK. The only thing that gets me is the price. I'd seriously entertain getting a Glock 19 with a few mags and change left over, for that price.

I got one in .40 a couple weeks ago - so far it fits my hand better and points more naturally than my USP Compact... AND it uses the same mags!
Yeah, the price is up there, but go to Traders in San Leandro - they have it for $799.99 whether you buy one off the shelf or they have to order it. For the price though, a Glock 19 would be much cheaper... but I have one of those too

 

[VeloceMoto]

So...

I got around to shooting the Glock 23 this weekend.

It was the first time I'd shot something with the .40 SW cartridge. It seemed to me like it kicked a *little* harder than the full size .45 ACP. I'm betting it's because 1) it's mostly plastic and 2) it was the compact model, so generally more recoil.

But as I was doing a little research, I noticed in a balistics table that the .40SW has both MORE velocity and MORE energy than the .45 ACP.

I got to talking to a nice guy at the range who let me shoot his Sig P226. It had LESS recoil than the full size .45 ACP Kimber I was shooting, too.

What gives?

 

[RydTher]

Felt recoil has many factors. Weight of the gun, bullet weight, bullet velocity, grip size, shape and material, etc.

the compact model wont necessarily have more recoil, just more felt recoil, and probably less recoil since the barrel is shorter, therefore typically less velocity. Grip size is smaller and therefore potentially less control.
Another factor is the distance of the barrel axis to the axis of the arm. Glocks typically have a lower barrel. The recoil therefore has less opportunity to leverage the hand/arm up. This is why many revolvers seem to recoil more than most autoloaders, that and the fact some energy is being absorbed in the firing/extracting/cocking action autoloaders have. My .357 revolver with certain loads can be a bear to shoot.

The 226 is either 9mm or .40, which typically feel like they have less recoil than a .45. As far as muzzle energy and velocity, those two stats dont fully explain a particular rounds effectiveness. The Sig is also well designed as far as ergonomics go, which helps.

I have a SA Operator in .45, those that have shot it back to back with a standard pattern .45 have commented that it feels like it has less recoil. Only difffernece is mine is heavier by some ounces, and that weight is out at the end of the frame.

 

[VeloceMoto]

The 226 is either 9mm or .40, which typically feel like they have less recoil than a .45. As far as muzzle energy and velocity, those two stats dont fully explain a particular rounds effectiveness. The Sig is also well designed as far as ergonomics go, which helps.

Yeah, I guess my big question is: What's the deal with the .40SW? And why do ballistics info make it 'appear' as though it's a superior cartridge to the .45 ACP?



Oh, I forgot to mention... After only 25 rounds with the compact Glock, my pinky finger on my right hand was tingly for the rest of the night. I think the shorter grip was digging into some nerve in palm. Not good...

 

[RydTher]

superior caliber discussions are like what chain lube to use or what oil to use. to some its a nearly religious matter.

the .40 S&W is a fine caliber, and superior in some ways over the .45. My personal choice is .45, but if I had done the LEO thing (blown back killed that career option) I would have had no trouble using relying and trusting the .40 which has a huge following in LEO circles.
bit of history here...
It's derived from the 10mm as you may know, and statistically sometimes a better performer than the .45. The .45 has nearly a 100 yrs of proven service, so any caliber has that tradition to fight against. Shootists typically being traditionalists in many ways.
The 10mm and the .40SW typically have a 180gr bullet moving at (I forget the velocity) but studies by the FBI showed that combination provided the best potential power in a handgun. They then adopted the 10mm for a short time, but discovered a number of problems when training the agents. 1) the recoil of a 10mm is substantial, 2)10mms needed new frames casusing the pistol prices to be high, 3) being a large frame gun it is harder to conceal for the agents. Mainly due to the recoil issue, the FBI had the ammo downloaded some. Then Federal ammo and SW had the idea why not shorten the case - hence the 40SW. This also was a good idea, because a good many 9mms could be modified for the .40 and cheaper pistols was the result. Current .40 loads match or nealry enough what the FBI came up with in their studies.

There is a saying that illustrates the potential superiority of the .45 ...
"a 9mm may exapand, but a .45 will not shrink" same holds true of the .40. The .45 being a slower round also has a better chance of transferring all of its energy to the target. Faster bullets generally pass through their targets.

 

[zefflyn]

Yeah, I guess my big question is: What's the deal with the .40SW? And why do ballistics info make it 'appear' as though it's a superior cartridge to the .45 ACP?

the .45 acp is almost a hundred years old. It operates at relatively low pressure.

The .40 S&W is a fairly new round, and operates at higher pressures. This can increase perceived recoil.

It's only .05 slimmer than the .45, but packs more velocity. Whether or not it is superior depends on the loads, bullets, and target. Sometimes a slow fat round will work better, sometimes a faster round will work better. If you need penetration, faster is better.

In any case, hitting your target is the most important thing of all, so select the caliber that you can shoot the most accurately.

 

[sohijiro]

i shoot .45 more accurately because it tends to have a slow rolling recoil, like long rifle cartridges,

.40 tends to be sharp and fast recoil, i dont really like it. but it can also be attributed to the weight of the gun.

,45 is WAY more common, so ammo prices are a little cheaper than .40cal. i tend to buy guns in nato cartridges, because of the cheaper prices in ammo,. other cartridges might have better balistics, but what it all boils down to is how much its going to cost to go shooting,. if its expensive, you wont go shoot.

if i was to get a .40cal is would be a 10mm in a glock 20. something im looking at now, but doubt ill get cuz the ammo is expensive and handloading handgun rounds is boring cuz you have to make so many of them.


theres no real RIGHT cartridges, they are both relatively the same, relativly the same cost, boils down to just preference.

think of it this way, would you rahter get hit by a 40mph baseball, or a 30mph bowling ball.

 

[sohijiro]

Don't get me wrong, I love the thing, but that whole setup cost about $1200. No where near the range of true custom jobbies.

I liked your setup as well. Seemed to shoot just fine. I've been tempted to get one of the accutrigger ones, but the PSS would be more of an aesthetic complement to the LTR.

i was comparing the ltr and the new 700p,. (i dont think PSS is made anymore) the only real difference is 6 inches longer and no fluting compared to the ltr, and since 308 only burns in 18 inches or so, think its worht the extra 6 inches?

probably reduced flash and noise though now that i think of it, but im no sniper, dont really care about that stuff

i really wish the pss came with a 5r barrel like the m24, i hear they are accurate, and easy to clean

 

[Shotline]

Is there a federal waiting period for gun purchases?

Idaho doesn't appear to have one and I am going to be buying a gun to carry soon and want to know if I have to wait to pick it up.

The gun store is about a 2 hour drive so I would really not want to wait.

 

[ScorpioVI]

Is there a federal waiting period for gun purchases?

Idaho doesn't appear to have one and I am going to be buying a gun to carry soon and want to know if I have to wait to pick it up.

The gun store is about a 2 hour drive so I would really not want to wait.

No fed waiting period. I don't think Idaho has any waiting periods. Just a Federal NICS check and off you go.

And a CCW negates waiting periods in most states anyway.

 

[Ratters]

i was comparing the ltr and the new 700p,. (i dont think PSS is made anymore) the only real difference is 6 inches longer and no fluting compared to the ltr, and since 308 only burns in 18 inches or so, think its worht the extra 6 inches?

probably reduced flash and noise though now that i think of it, but im no sniper, dont really care about that stuff

i really wish the pss came with a 5r barrel like the m24, i hear they are accurate, and easy to clean

I just wan't the heavier barrel and gun for the recoil reduction. Hey, so I'm a wuss.

Lots of things to buy before I pick one of those up though. Got to get all those "unsafe" pistols that don't have a loaded chamber indicator and magazine safety first.

 

[zefflyn]

No fed waiting period. I don't think Idaho has any waiting periods. Just a Federal NICS check and off you go.

And a CCW negates waiting periods in most states anyway.

Yep.

In Utah, if you have CCW, they don't even do the NICS, just the yellow form and you're off.

 

[atek3]

since 308 only burns in 18 inches or so, think its worht the extra 6 inches?

not true.
Check out the calculation Zak Smith did
168 gr SMK's and IMR4895
16": 2468 fps
18: 2541
20: 2600
24: 2705

with a 150 gr bullet
24" inch gives 2813 fps.

Special palma rifles with 30" barrels throw 155 gr bullets at 2950 fps.

The velocity gains are really incremental after 24", the only reason to go longer is if you really want to reach out and tough people.

My 223 has a 26" barrel, I can drive an 80 gr bullet hard enough to stay supersonic at 1k, I couldn't do that with a 20" tube.

atek3

 

[Shotline]

No fed waiting period. I don't think Idaho has any waiting periods. Just a Federal NICS check and off you go.

And a CCW negates waiting periods in most states anyway.

Thats what I thought, cool

I don't have the CCW yet but expect it anytime.

I love free America

 

[sohijiro]

not true.
Check out the calculation Zak Smith did
168 gr SMK's and IMR4895
16": 2468 fps
18: 2541
20: 2600
24: 2705

with a 150 gr bullet
24" inch gives 2813 fps.

Special palma rifles with 30" barrels throw 155 gr bullets at 2950 fps.

The velocity gains are really incremental after 24", the only reason to go longer is if you really want to reach out and tough people.

My 223 has a 26" barrel, I can drive an 80 gr bullet hard enough to stay supersonic at 1k, I couldn't do that with a 20" tube.

atek3

damn, ok ill get long barrel then

 

[ScorpioVI]

I don't have the CCW yet but expect it anytime.

I love free America

Yea, whatever.


See, we don't need no CCWs, 'slong as we got bananas:

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-robbery-attempt-bananas,0,977853.story?coll=sns-ap-nationworld-headlines

Woman pelts robbery suspect with bananas




By JAMES MacPHERSON
Associated Press Writer

March 25, 2005

BISMARCK, N.D. -- Crystal Senger stopped at a convenience store to buy pop and cigarettes, and she saw the clerk being choked in a robbery attempt. She ran to call for help. Then she started throwing bananas.

Senger, 19, said she grew up playing organized baseball, and used those skills to pelt the suspect in the head with every banana she threw, from about 10 feet away.

"I was seven-for-seven," Senger said in a telephone interview Thursday. "They were green bananas -- not the ripe mushy ones -- so they hurt."

Senger said the suspect, whom police said was intoxicated, was stunned from getting hit by the flying fruit.

A 17-year-old was arrested after he bolted from the Devils Lake store and tripped over a piece of wood, after a short foot chase, Police Chief Bruce Kemmet said. The teen had no weapon and no money was taken from the store, Kemmet said.

Police said the suspect, who was not identified because of his age, stood more than 6 feet tall, and weighed about 300 pounds. He allegedly entered the Holiday Station Store about 1 a.m. Tuesday.

"It's pretty simple. The guy walked into the store and said something to the effect of "Give me what I want,"' Kemmet said.

"He threw me around like I was nothing," said store clerk Ed Bingham, "and I weigh 220 pounds." Bingham said the suspect kicked and punched him for what "felt like forever."

Bingham, 43, said he pushed a button that alerted the store's security company.

"When I walked in the store, I saw Ed in a choke hold, yelling for help and gasping for air," Senger said. "There was blood everywhere."

She ran out and told her friend to call 911 on her cell phone. "She was in shock, so I had to do it," Senger said.

Senger said she came back in the store and "screamed at the top of my lungs at him to stop." When she was sure the suspect was unarmed, she began bombarding him with bananas.

Senger said the basket of bananas was the closest thing she could find. "If there would have been cans of soup on the counter, I would have thrown those at him," she said.

Bingham, who has worked at the store 15 years, said he had a swollen eye and needed four stitches to close a cut on his eyebrow. He returned to work Wednesday night.

Kemmet said the suspect faces a number of charges in juvenile court, including robbery, assault and underage drinking.

Now where can I get an akimbo ISB holster for a pair of Chiquitas?

 

[KIDRR]

Anyone here own/shot a 10ga shotgun?