Body position

[MrMorgue]

So I just did my first trackday in 7 years last weekend at Buttonwillow. Looking forward to getting back into more trackdays and ultimately back to racing. My story, raced in WERA in the southeast 9 or so years ago. I raced an FZR400 and the SV's were just coming on. I did tons of track days and races and finally, after two years began getting the podium. In fact, I was leading my last race when I hit my knee on the front of the rumble strips and broke it (stayed on the bike though!). Anyway, that was my last race.

So, I say all of that to talk about my body position, which seems to be messed up and was messed up back when I raced. If you look at my avatar (from my racing days) you can probably tell that I seem to end up crossed up a bit. So fast forward to last weekend and yup, still crossed up. I concentrated on changing my body position but all of the pictures that I saw that were taken at the track have me in the same position...like my body just won't let me do anything else.

Anyone have any tricks to fixing body position? I'm pretty sure my body position slows me down and I think that it also makes me work harder then I need to, even though it is where my body naturally wants to fall.

Shawn

 

[stangmx13]

move your head, the body will follow

i tend to practice on the street. not in a squidly ass-hanging-off manner, but more just that ill move my head around for every single turn. all those slow corners on my commute and even the fun on/off ramps, i make sure to move my head to the inside of the corner. the more i do it, the less i have to consciously think about it when i get to the track.

 

[afm199]

bend at the waist and try to kiss your inside mirror ( where it would be)

 

[ZXR400SP]

Yep, in your avatar you are crossed up, it appears to me that your are rotating your hips around the bike. You want to slide from side to side, not rotate, one butt cheek off the seat, more is not necessary. Rotate shoulders and head towards the turn, balls of your feet on the pegs, pointing down and slightly out, like a baseball catcher. Come to the races at Infineon on the 9th & 10th there will be plenty of people there that can help.

 

[Med23]

I have been working what Rober said above a lot, but it is always hard to think about it when really pushing yourself. Key is to get so fluid in doing it that your muscle memory doesn't allow you to revert back to crossing up.

The interesting thing is that I recall two of the greats always riding crossed up, and so I wonder how true it is that riding a certain way is the only way of doing it fast. I'm kinda just posing a question in hopes that the fast guys on here respond. Maybe crossing up isn't so bad for you.

 

[Holeshot]

Be especially conscious of how much weight you put on that inner arm/ elbow. Using your inner arm to support your weight (and not your core) doesn't allow the front end to transition from counter steering to steering quickly and thus, mixed apexes galore. ALOT of riders I see support their weight with that inner arm. That will affect the handling/ turn radius of the bike tremendously.

 

[KazMan]

Mr. Morgue,
I am in someowhat of the same dilemna as i am a product of the 80's and being crossed up was the norm. I would say that Kevin Schwantz could also be added to the examples of that particular riding style as yours is very close.

I would say for starters, that Ernies suggestion of kissing mirrors seems to help get a body into this position as does keeping your elbows and knees connected was one suggestion I heard.

But what it really comes down to is your lap times and if they are competitive, will changing your body style help get your times lower. This is the conundrum(spelling police?) I am in now as I progress with my return to racing after many years.

I would say that any of the trackdays (Z2 or PTT as I have attended those) have people who can and will help you with the 'proper' riding styles of today, you just have to ask.

Good luck and looking forward to seeing you on the track soon.

KazMan

 

[LongGoneJohn]

I used to worry a ton about body position.

Now I just worry about weight and what the bike is doing. If I do something with my feet, hands, arms or body and I don't like the way it affects the motorcycle going around a corner -- I change it. If I do something and I like the way it works, or it feels to me / gives me better control, I don't.

There's always a give and take though -- sometimes you need to determine (through lap times and race results) what is actually working best for you in terms of results, and what works for you in terms of reality (comfort, safety, tire wear, controllability, etc). The bottom line is if you aren't comfortable doing something, you won't do it / get comfortable with it, or even if you do, you won't be able to have the control that you should.

Im a rookie bitch but I wouldnt worry so much about being "crossed" up, instead -- as I said above -- worry about what you're doing to the bike because of specific points of contact with the bike. All the 80's guys rode crossed up, and they were fine. Why? The weight was in the right places and the inputs weren't in the wrong places. Body positioning just helps us laymen do that a little bit easier, but again, it's not the end all be all.

 

[chopperbill]

Body position is very important...unless you like crashing a lot. The faster you go the more important it becomes. Being crossed up will force you to use too much lean angle to get through turns. Focus on getting your butt slid to the outside of the seat, put weight on your inside foot and drop your head as you exit the turn. There is no magic to it, you just have to keep practising and talk to good instructors to get there......just like the rest of us.
Good luck, glad you are back.

 

[stangmx13]

Body position is very important...unless you like crashing a lot. The faster you go the more important it becomes. Being crossed up will force you to use too much lean angle to get through turns. Focus on getting your butt slid to the outside of the seat, put weight on your inside foot and drop your head as you exit the turn. There is no magic to it, you just have to keep practising and talk to good instructors to get there......just like the rest of us.
Good luck, glad you are back.

i think your definitions of "inside" and "outside" are backwards.... theres plenty of room to argue on this one, but this makes more sense to me:
Focus on getting your butt slid to the inside of the seat, put weight on your outside foot and drop your head as you exit the turn.

funny, the faster i go the less i worry about body position in relation to lean angle. ill scrape knee, toes, and bodywork in a long fast corner and think "i better hang off farther next time." so i do, and guess wat... still scrape knee, toes, and bodywork the same amount.

 

[Lazerus]

funny, the faster i go the less i worry about body position in relation to lean angle. ill scrape knee, toes, and bodywork in a long fast corner and think "i better hang off farther next time." so i do, and guess wat... still scrape knee, toes, and bodywork the same amount.

There might be some more room for improvement then... what you're describing sounds a lot like your inside arm is tensing up when you hang off further. Maybe because it's and unusual position for you?

Had my first trip to Miller recently, and wore completely through my right toe slider the first day. Next day, I changed a couple things. Zoran told me I was parking it in corners. I thought, well shit, I'm out of lean angle as I'm dragging toe, where am I going to find more roll speed? BP was it. I got to the point that I was focusing on basically trying to drag elbow. This brings the head way down and in, and with the elbow bent and away from the body, there's no way to support your weight with it. This prevents you from having the leverage necessary to inadvertently inhibit the bikes ability to steer, which reduces lean angle for a given speed and radius.

I was able lap to a full 3 seconds faster, completely eliminate braking for one corner... and guess what? No scuffs on the new toe sliders

Simple test of theory: Ride straight down the road. Lean the bike one direction or the other. Now you're not going straight any more!

Now, straighten out, and lean your body the opposite direction of the bike. Now, when balanced correctly, you can continue to ride straight even though your bike is leaned over. Basically making a V out of your weight and that of the bike's.

Then, if you kept your body in the same position and brought the bike verticle, you would be able to turn in the direction of your body without leaning the bike.

Given all of the above, can you see how body positioning reduces lean angle?
It's not a matter of opinion, it's real.

/preachy rant

 

[stangmx13]

There might be some more room for improvement then... what you're describing sounds a lot like your inside arm is tensing up when you hang off further. Maybe because it's and unusual position for you?

...

ya def, always room for improvement.

the turn i had in mind when typing that was Riverside at Buttonwillow. because of the banking, the faster i go the more the suspension loads and the closer i get to the asphalt. i dont scrape toes in any other corner around that track. i doubt my inner arm is tense, but ill have to focus on that next trackday.

of course, after reviewing some video, its not like im hanging off the bike like Toni Elias. my head is usually in line w/ the master cyl. i do pull my knee back in to keep it from diggin in, so maybe thats y i dont get super far off the bike. i need to follow someone fast around the track to see if im losing time in that corner.

 

[Lazerus]

I have to remind myself every time I ride to relax my inner arm Usually multiple times per lap!

Riverside is especially hard to keep the inside arm relaxed because you are (should be) at positive throttle the whole time. It gets awkward to keep good throttle control the further your wrist gets cocked.

I don't drag hard parts in riverside on the sv though. What kind of times are you doing there?

 

[afm199]

The position being called "crossed up" (90s riders) still has almost all of the body weight to the inside of a line drawn through the tire center and tail section center. The position in the avatar shows a lot of weight on the OTHER side of that line.

 

[KazMan]

I'm not saying anyone is wrong here we get into these conversations about body positions. I agree that many things can be done and done effectively enough to even be a world champion as the video shows Kevin all crossed up and Wayne doing the more traditional method of weighting to the inside. I believe that if for some reason you develope a non-typical style, you then have to figure out how to get the bike to work for you and your style.

I whole-heartedly believe that the current style will get you up to speed quicker than any other style as it give you ample opportunity to make adjustments without making too strong an input on the bike. But as in anything there are always those who provide the exception to the rule.

As the OP has a previous racing background, there just may be too many things out of instinct so he will have to work harder to re-develope a style he is trying to get to.

[youtube]9fok9Y22FEM&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

 

[vicztrix]

I was reading this before there were this many posts, but I didnt have time to comment. Looks like a lot of feedback now, before I got a chance to say my piece. Anyways, if you are dragging helmet, you are doing it right

 

[MrMorgue]

Yep, in your avatar you are crossed up, it appears to me that your are rotating your hips around the bike. You want to slide from side to side, not rotate, one butt cheek off the seat, more is not necessary.

I think this may be what I'm doing. I bring a lot of my body off the bike, more then just one butt cheek, and that might be causing me to rotate the hips which puts me into that crossed up position. I say this because it always seems like I end up that way regardless of what I'm trying to do with my upper body, which would make sense if I'm rotating around the bike.

This is all great discussion. I know that it takes practice to fix it, but having ideas about things to try will help next time out. "Back in the day", I was fast enough and didn't lowside much from loss of traction, but now seems like a good time to improve as I'm just getting back into things.

Shawn

 

[afm199]

There seems to be a popular belief that hanging a lot of ass off is a good thing. The only GP rider who really does it is Elias.

 

[joespeedfast]

I have been working what Rober said above a lot, but it is always hard to think about it when really pushing yourself. Key is to get so fluid in doing it that your muscle memory doesn't allow you to revert back to crossing up.

The interesting thing is that I recall two of the greats always riding crossed up, and so I wonder how true it is that riding a certain way is the only way of doing it fast. I'm kinda just posing a question in hopes that the fast guys on here respond. Maybe crossing up isn't so bad for you.

Yep. The only way to do it is "the right way", just like all the local experts tell ya. Otherwise, you could end up sucking too, just like these guys.

Unless you are un-comfortable and feel awkward, worry about what you're doing with the motorcycle, first and foremost. It's always good to try different things(many). Body position will fall into place with applying the motorcycle-accurately.

 

[Old Bike]

me to

I have the same issue. All crossed up. This is what I am doing to try and fix it. On my street ride s I concentrate on shifting my but over so I only hang a cheek off instead of my whole ass and turning my hips toward the inside of the turn. I have to do this because my natural instinct is to rotate around the tank. If you ride choked up to the tank sliding back a little seams to help with not rotating your hips. I found that dropping your upper body makes the difference you get more wait off the bike and it feels as comfortable as being crossed up. Changing your style means reprogaming muscle memory and that takes repetition. I'll see how it goes. This much I have figured out since your not hanging your butt off so far you will need to move your upper body more. However for most of us
your upper torso ways more than ass