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Body position

He's actually HOLDING his line, not changing it, but he's also maintaining the same steering while having less lean angle and more drive grip/ more drive. The contact patch is bigger because the forces applied are not contributing to a side load, which is the same as "going sideways". Stoner is dropping his body further down low to maintain the steering angle while also having less lean angle.

Ever pulled the inside bar when exiting a corner?
 
No, I push on outside bar :)
It is not size of contact patch, it is not any bigger when upright. It is more traction you have for forward acceleration when upright. Traction is same, leaned or not, just more of it used for cornering when leaned and reason you can't use it for acceleration.
I thought you said body is used for steering, not bars?
 
There another big argument that goes unspoken most of the time, inside or outside bar, a great rider that is better than both of you told me he did neither.

I've been told the inside and the outside just as often by different front runners of FP and of other classes not mention a couple serious pros.

The first person to ever explain the benefit of pulling on the inside bar, which is what I do, to me was PTT's head man and FP front runner. I've also been told more recently by the mystery camp man that he pushes on the outside bar.

I think some things on a bike come down to personal feel and if you consider the basics of counter steering, whether you push or pull you are having the same basic counter steering effect on the bike, NO?
 
Holeshot said:
He's actually HOLDING his line, not changing it, but he's also maintaining the same steering while having less lean angle and more drive grip/ more drive. The contact patch is bigger because the forces applied are not contributing to a side load, which is the same as "going sideways". Stoner is dropping his body further down low to maintain the steering angle while also having less lean angle.

Ever pulled the inside bar when exiting a corner?
Click to expand...

u do a really good job of sounding like you are disagreeing w/ someone, when really you arent saying much at all.

also, i call bullshit of whats in bold. you are suggesting that Stoner's body position is allowing him to exit the corner with no bar inputs, ie no changes to the steering angle. yet in the next line, u ask if we use bar inputs to exit a corner... ill concede that when a GP pro has their front tire in the air while exiting a corner, they arent using any bar inputs. but of course, finishing off the corner on the rear tire just means that they set their line with bar inputs prior to the wheelie.

will u at least agree that the fastest way through any corner is w/ the least number of bar inputs as possible?... most likely 2, 1 to get into the corner and 1 to get out. and any further changes are jus wasting time/energy/speed/grip/etc.
 
stangmx13 said:
will u at least agree that the fastest way through any corner is w/ the least number of bar inputs as possible?... most likely 2, 1 to get into the corner and 1 to get out. and any further changes are jus wasting time/energy/speed/grip/etc.
Click to expand...

I disagree, as there are variables that aren't addressed through that method, such as crested, double apex, decreasing radius, and long corners where exit is important. Using inputs to straighten out an apex, tighten a line for a second apex, or decrease lean angle as needed aren't always a waste or slowing you down. Without additional input, you are essentially trying to apply a cookie cutter single arc to every corner... would probably work in nascar :)
 
well played Lazerus... i should stop generalizing, damnit :laughing

actually, wouldnt "using inputs to straighten out an apex" and "decrease lean angle" mean that you are exiting the corner and that is your 2nd input?? i agree that every corner is different. but i still the think that comparing 2 riders through the same corner, if one makes 5 bar inputs and the other can do it in 2, the one that did it in 2 can be faster.

i guess theres a big distinction between bar input and correction that will confuse the matter.
 
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stangmx13 said:
well played Lazerus... i should stop generalizing, damnit :laughing

actually, wouldnt "using inputs to straighten out an apex" and "decrease lean angle" mean that you are exiting the corner and that is your 2nd input?? i agree that every corner is different. but i still the think that comparing 2 riders through the same corner, if one makes 5 bar inputs and the other can do it in 2, the one that did it in 2 can be faster.

i guess theres a big distinction between bar input and correction that will confuse the matter.
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Depends, why was one rider making more inputs? If it's to correct his mistakes, then of course the rider who makes fewer mistakes will be faster. If it's to say straighten up and pin it momentarily between apexes or over a crest before recommitting to the turn, it might be faster :dunno I know that at say infineon I have to add inputs or use inputs that I otherwise wouldn't if the turn were flat... like exiting 3 and 8, there are two "exit" type inputs. One to stand up enough to safely apply throttle, and one to take away lean angle completely.

Of course, that's because I don’t have the balls or talent to wheelie at lean with the rear sliding. Fast FP guys are executing the second input mid wheelie with their feet :)
 
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So IGO, you seem to really hang it out, what technique do you use?:rolleyes
 
stangmx13 said:
u do a really good job of sounding like you are disagreeing w/ someone, when really you arent saying much at all.

also, i call bullshit of whats in bold. you are suggesting that Stoner's body position is allowing him to exit the corner with no bar inputs, ie no changes to the steering angle. yet in the next line, u ask if we use bar inputs to exit a corner... ill concede that when a GP pro has their front tire in the air while exiting a corner, they arent using any bar inputs. but of course, finishing off the corner on the rear tire just means that they set their line with bar inputs prior to the wheelie.

will u at least agree that the fastest way through any corner is w/ the least number of bar inputs as possible?... most likely 2, 1 to get into the corner and 1 to get out. and any further changes are jus wasting time/energy/speed/grip/etc.
Click to expand...

Both my comments are interlinked. I'm not sure you understand what happens when you pull the inside bar (or push the outside bar as Zoran does). This is an added steering input which will stand the bike up, but add steering. The rider counter to added steering is moving the CG towards the inside of the apex/ corner...that's what moving weight down lower and towards the inside of the corner does; counteract the forces to the outside of the corner.

One terrible habit alot of the new riders have is using edge grip as drive grip. They don't understand the concept of drive grip taking a bike down the track and edge grip assisting the bike in pointing the correct direction off the corner. Once a rider is finishing their steering phase, they can begin to pick the bike up and accelerate (as Zoran commented on) forward, using their momentum to carry them DOWN the track and not use that momentum to carry them off the outside of the corner. I learned this only recently when I started racing Go-karts at Infineon...being concious of carrying my momentum/ acceleration down the straightaway and not off to the outside of the corner dropped my times from mid pack to qualifying on pole. It was huge.

T7 at Sears is a place where I see alot of riders make the same mistake. I'm pretty shitty at entries, but my T7 exit is where I make the money. The secret? Pretty easy; wait for the exit and don't mash the throttle until you're lined up for your exit apex. However, 9/10 riders I ride with pick the throttle up too early and are forced to finish the corner off on the extreme side of the corner. Chris (siglin) is really good there too, but most likely that one mistake of not being able to pick the bike up for his drive is what cost him traction and thus, a nasty highside. As Z-man was getting at, when you're coming off the corner, you really want to be putting the power to the ground, pushing the rear tire into the ground as much as possible as opposed to side loading the tire and using the edge grip to keep the tire hooked up on exits. That shit will only last so long before the tire's hammered. I see alot of up and coming racers complaining about tire life and grip issues after just one race/ trackday. I rarely get less than 3 races and 1-2 trackdays out of an SC1 rear and at that point, it's begining to tear but still has plenty of grip.

On that note, Kamal and I spoke on running some tire temp sensors, etc and using data Aquisiton to see if my theory is correct: that the cold tearing comes from less experienced riders using the side of the tire more than the middle and thus, not putting enough heat into the tires. Of course, this also could be less aggressive acceleration runs as well...but we'll learn something.
Corey Nuer (CT RACING...who's helping us with this test) told me that in a recent NJ moto shoot out, they ran Data Aq and tire temp sensors. Their discoveries were enlightening...that tires had cooled some 30 or 40 degrees from warmers off to track entry. Damn...! The other part that was something I'd not expect was losing about 20 degrees on a short chute straight away...which is where I'd expect more load on the tire and thus, more heat.

I say all this because I think alot of what we see in MotoGP riding isn't always for true cornering, but tire life maintenance, drive grip, maximum use of force, etc...stuff we just don't think about nor manage at a club level, but could learn to and make use of. Stoner needs to make that rear tire last alot longer than we do.

It'll work for most of our 6 lap races, but won't work well in an AMA or longer type event. To put it even simpler: Stoner is using drive grip as drive grip and putting as much power (force) to the ground in as direct a manner as he can...hence the reason he tries to carry less lean angle off the corner (but still needs steering to finish the corner). The steering angle forces are attempting to pull Stoner off the outside of his bike, hence the reason he lowers and moves his CG further to the inside while standing the bike up.

BTW, if you want to have a discussion on this stuff, I'm always up for it cause I find out where I'm incorrect and where I may really have something...but you don't have to come at it like the typical BARF Dick attitude. We're in the RC where pretty much everyone knows each other and that keeps things pretty in check (not always though!). That's not said as a mod, but just as a guy who enjoys bantering over this stuff, but I don't feel having an attitude is really productive to the discussion. I'm only sharing my insights...correct and incorrect to help you reach that next level. You don't have to take them...but I'd urge you to go and try a few and see what that does for your impressions on riding.
 
We spoke about picking the bike up at corner exit in Keith Code's thread over in the training section of the forum a while back (might have been a year or more ago.) One of the interesting things to come out of the discussion was the point that picking the bike up permitted us to conserve rubber at the extreme edge of the tire for cornering, by doing more of our accelerating on the rubber closer to the centre of the tire.
 
Burning1 said:
We spoke about picking the bike up at corner exit in Keith Code's thread over in the training section of the forum a while back (might have been a year or more ago.) One of the interesting things to come out of the discussion was the point that picking the bike up permitted us to conserve rubber at the extreme edge of the tire for cornering, by doing more of our accelerating on the rubber closer to the centre of the tire.
Click to expand...

My rear tire pretty much always runs out of tread depth in the fat part of the tire, from one inch to three inches off the edge, first. Maybe my corner speed sucks. But it seems like this is where most guys chew up the rear, not on the edges.
 
Off topic,

Why is edge grip also referred to as mechanical grip and what mechanical parts influence the grip level available?
 
DonJigweed said:
My rear tire pretty much always runs out of tread depth in the fat part of the tire, from one inch to three inches off the edge, first. Maybe my corner speed sucks. But it seems like this is where most guys chew up the rear, not on the edges.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't be surprised to find that the fastest guys tend to wear out the edges of their tires. :dunno
 
Holeshot said:
....

BTW, if you want to have a discussion on this stuff, I'm always up for it cause I find out where I'm incorrect and where I may really have something...but you don't have to come at it like the typical BARF Dick attitude. We're in the RC where pretty much everyone knows each other and that keeps things pretty in check (not always though!). That's not said as a mod, but just as a guy who enjoys bantering over this stuff, but I don't feel having an attitude is really productive to the discussion. I'm only sharing my insights...correct and incorrect to help you reach that next level. You don't have to take them...but I'd urge you to go and try a few and see what that does for your impressions on riding.
Click to expand...

you do realize that the attitude was in response to your lack of discussion on the topic, right? i consider sitting there acting like u kno everything just as much attitude as my prev post. so, now that thats out of the way...

moving weight off the side of the bike will def help to stand the bike up. however, help is the key word there. the difference in lean angle of the bike between how Edwards (who tends to stay pretty neutral even when his ribs arent hurting) and Stoner hang off on corner exit is minimal, probably a few degrees or less. after all, a rider cant move their center of mass more than an inch or two in any direction, esp if u are talking about going from standard hanging off to an exaggerated off-the-side position solely for corner exit. and Stoner weighs about about 1/3 his bike weight, further diminishing the effect.

however, hanging off the side at that exact moment where u want to pick the bike up speeds up the motion itself. its the same argument for getting off the seat over bumps. the rider detaches their momentum from the equation, so the motion happens faster. so, now the bike is fully picked up 0.2sec sooner and you should therefore be on the gas 0.2sec sooner as well. not a lot of time gained per exit (not even 0.2 like i exemplified), but there are a lot of corner exits in a 100km race.

the rest of your post about edge & drive grip, hopefully more trackday riders/racers will learn that soon. i learned it the hard way about a year ago, both by "wasting" tires trying to uses edges for drive and by trying to get on the throttle while adding more lean angle just to finish a corner (stupid mistake, i kno). thatll teach me to keep riding the bike hard, even when it doesnt want to finish a corner.
 
Shawnery said:
Off topic,

Why is edge grip also referred to as mechanical grip and what mechanical parts influence the grip level available?
Click to expand...

ive only ever heard mechanical grip talked about in comparison to aerodynamic grip, extra grip "created" solely from aero downforce. an F1 car has mechanical grip when rolling around at low speeds around Monaco. but the second they get a fast corner, aero comes into play, creating downforce and tons of aero grip.

suspension would be the number one system that influences mechanical grip, besides the tires themselves of course.
 
Holeshot said:
...being concious of carrying my momentum/ acceleration down the straightaway and not off to the outside of the corner dropped my times from mid pack to qualifying on pole. It was huge.
Click to expand...


I'm pretty sure I follow you on everything you've said, except for the line above. Can you ellaborate a little bit in yellow-plate terms? Thanks!:teeth
 
To clarify: Less mid corner speed and quicker steering/ pointing of the Kart allowed me to carry momentum down the straight away as opposed to high mid corner speed and thus, slower steering/ pointing of the Kart...which forced a later application of full throttle. In and out of the corner as quickly can be done. That means a large direction change in a short distance, meaning more application of brakes, slower mid corner and quicker steer phase, to allow for an earlier application of full throttle (not just throttle period).
 
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