Classifieds and the old days

[Z3n]

Let's chat for a minute about the classifieds.

It seems like since the rules went in place where no one could comment on classifieds, the prices have gone up, year over year, as well as getting lower quality. Thanks to the lack of accountability because no one can say anything, many of the posts are either missing details, mislisted, or are obviously lying about the bike, and yet no one can comment on it because anything but "GLWS" is ban bait.

At this point, there's no selling point for this over CL - you can't expect anyone to say anything of substance on an ad, so you may as well just go to CL, because there's much higher volume out there.

I miss the classifieds where you could expect that if someone was posting bullshit they'd be called on it - there's a shitload of combined bike knowledge on these forums, and I feel like it made the classifieds better to know that when you were looking at your first bike or whatever, if someone was throwing out some bullshit, they'd be called on it. IMO, that sort of accountability makes the site better. It's sad to see that go die away.

 

[gnstalodz]

quiet, you might hurt feelings

 

[davidji]

I think discussing the absurd ads in this forum is good, but I think I've seen mods even take exception to that. I agree with keeping people from crapping in for sale threads. But we should be able to talk about this stuff.

 

[Z3n]

My opinion - if you don't want people shitting on your ads, don't list shitty ads. This isn't rocket science. Take some decent pictures, post up the complete details on the bike, and if someone shows up and discovers the bike is a giant shitpile, people should be free to post about that. More transparency and more accountability in the process of bike sales would also help new riders get into decent bikes, or at least understand what to start looking for.

Edit: Oh, whoops, I should have posted this here. Thanks kind mod who moved it

 

[byke]

I assume you're talking about that Ninja 300, but what about the KTM 690? The seller stubbornly refuses to edit knowingly incorrect vehicle specs, why is it tolerated? The seller is just being a pill, but it's not all that disconnected from being fraudulent once the mistakes are known, the opportunity to correct it is presented, but the seller chooses to ignore it.

 

[Z3n]

I wasn't thinking of the Ninja 300, obviously some stuff went down there.

The 690 was sort of the catalyst for it all, but the thought has been kicking around for a long time. Remember when Stan23 and Beau were nominated for mods of the classifieds?

Hell, in one of my posts that got deleted I corrected the ad for him. Shit's not rocket science.

It just seems absurd to have the mods take a bunch of time clearing out posts, deleting shit, and other BS, to...have less informed buyers?

Have people keep it on topic, be respectful, and if the stick is needed, have 24 hour probations that don't count towards a lifetime ban if people cross over the line in the for sale section.

As it sits it seems like the worst of all possible worlds: You don't get any community feedback (and yes, the community feedback is valuable sometimes and...less so, other times, but that's what the 24 hour probation is for), it takes up a bunch of mod time to moderate it, and there's no pressure from the community for sellers to act in a reasonable, informative manner.

You let people say what they will about bikes and you can get valuable commentary on bikes, known problems that may or may not have been addressed, buyers will start to expect more - details on wear items, maintenance that has been done, tire condition, age, etc.

Hell, I'd be willing to write up a template of all the things that should be covered. God knows I list enough bikes that it'd be worthwhile for personal use. But it seems sort of pointless if there's no way for the community to hold the other sellers accountable for it.

I've got CL for CL type ads. It seems like a waste of resources to have BARF just be more of the same.

 

[Aeroslash]

The comments in the KTM ad didn't seem insulting or offensive at all. Pointing out a listing error to the seller is helpful to the seller. How can you sell a bike to an enthusiast on a knowledgable forum if you don't have your facts straight?!

 

[byke]

I do remember when stan23 thought he should be the classifieds mod...where did he go anyway? And faz, where is that guy?

In regards to the 690, they posted a very nice ad, it's just that the info is wrong. The mods are very patient with the posts in the classifieds and they do sort of allow a little bit of 'calling out', but this one is a different because the seller is a sponsor of the site. My biggest complaint with the way that thread is now, is that they prune just enough for the thread to be a tempting little honeypot. Why do that? Just abort that six legged fetus and be done with it.

Anyway, the forum rules do have a basic outline of what sellers should include. Perhaps there is a way to bring up that info when someone clicks 'new thread'? I think they do that on calguns, the template just pops up with the new thread and then you edit accordingly. That won't fix the issues with the 690 ad, but it will help with what you were talking about regarding the template.

 

[NorCalAthlete]

I do remember when stan23 thought he should be the classifieds mod...where did he go anyway? And faz, where is that guy?

In regards to the 690, they posted a very nice ad, it's just that the info is wrong. The mods are very patient with the posts in the classifieds and they do sort of allow a little bit of 'calling out', but this one is a different because the seller is a sponsor of the site. My biggest complaint with the way that thread is now, is that they prune just enough for the thread to be a tempting little honeypot. Why do that? Just abort that six legged fetus and be done with it.

Anyway, the forum rules do have a basic outline of what sellers should include. Perhaps there is a way to bring up that info when someone clicks 'new thread'? I think they do that on calguns, the template just pops up with the new thread and then you edit accordingly. That won't fix the issues with the 690 ad, but it will help with what you were talking about regarding the template.

I do like the template idea from Calguns. One thing I've suggested to the mods as well is giving dealers their own sticky threads in the motos for sale, so that when they do their thread bumps we're not suddenly scrolling through page after page by the same seller. It floods out the private sales.

On the plus side, with all those bumps you do get to see that they follow their own rough format in thread titles and somewhat within the threads as well. The title is usually [Year] [Make] [Model]. With other thread titles, it varies quite a bit, plus the anecdotal things people throw in like "race bike, never down" or whatever. So it's nice to have a bit of uniformity before clicking something and then getting into the nitty gritty. Nobody wants to see the entire description in the thread title, for better or worse.

As for the 300/690 threads...we've discussed this before in another older long thread about the classifieds.

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=427601

While I think that it's everyone's right to try and get whatever money they truly think their item is worth, I also think that the place for overblown pricing and screwing a buyer over is Craigslist, not BARF.

Screwing each other over destroys the sense of community that is BARF. If you're going to use BARF to sell things, sell them for a fair price.

I like this.

Then threadcrapping would just be a term I had never heard of.

So...that's more in regards to the 300 than the 690. The 690 thread...eh. I've PM'd both the seller and mods about it. I politely expressed the opinion that it would be nice to have factually correct ads, particularly if that's your job rather than a casual seller.

As has already been stated here...making errors isn't the big deal. We're all human. But when an error is brought to attention and given the opportunity to be corrected and is instead brushed aside, well...then it's a problem. If it was something like the seller hadn't posted a reply at all because they only check their ads once a week to bump, ok cool no big deal - correct your post at that point and move on. Taking the time to address the community and point fingers without correcting your mistake while simultaneously acknowledging you made one....well...

 

[augustiron]

I agree in general but there is a fine line.

I think the un-subjective things should be fair game for commentary and questions:
- errors about bike/model/yr/etc in posting
- bikes with know shady history
- misrepresentation
- questions about known defects for models and have they been addressed
- incomplete ads

Price though is a big grey area for me.

People can ask whatever the hell they want, an overpriced bike should not sell. Price is such a broad and subjective matter that it will often be in question. Maybe if there was a poll for a bike and people could rate it
- great deal, fair, expensive. then it would be more democratic and buyers could see the "value rating" of a bike by a broad consensus? I dunno, just thought of that.

 

[i_am_the_koi]

One thing I've suggested to the mods as well is giving dealers their own sticky threads in the motos for sale, so that when they do their thread bumps we're not suddenly scrolling through page after page by the same seller.

I like that idea

 

[Z3n]

The way I look at it is - either invest effort or don't bother. So, with that in mind, when I bump my for sale thread later today, I'll post it in a first draft of a for sale template, and also post the template here for commentary.

Honestly, my motivations here are a bit more of the "Look out for each other" variety. I know there's little things that I forget each time I look at the bike (how's the oil look? chain kinking? are the sprockets hooked? when the suspension linkages been greased last? valves? brake pad condition? brake fluid look ok?) and it's easy to miss one and then have extra work to deal with when you get the bike home. It'd be nice to have all of those things available in a post without having to think about each one individually.

 

[Enchanter]

The way I look at it is - either invest effort or don't bother. So, with that in mind, when I bump my for sale thread later today, I'll post it in a first draft of a for sale template, and also post the template here for commentary.

Honestly, my motivations here are a bit more of the "Look out for each other" variety. I know there's little things that I forget each time I look at the bike (how's the oil look? chain kinking? are the sprockets hooked? when the suspension linkages been greased last? valves? brake pad condition? brake fluid look ok?) and it's easy to miss one and then have extra work to deal with when you get the bike home. It'd be nice to have all of those things available in a post without having to think about each one individually.

While I/we appreciate your desire to improve BARF, getting aggressive with a BARF Sponsor didn't do us any favors.

 

[Z3n]

I think your outlook on that will vary depending on if you feel it's more important to take in as many sponsors as needed, or if you feel that sponsors should be held to a reasonable standard of conduct and engage with the community in an factual, respectful manner.

Besides the current posts, there's threads like this in his history:
http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=444511

Selling a bike that had some form of serious front end damage while calling it "fully stock"? To put it nicely, that's _questionable_.

If my "getting aggressive" with a BARF sponsor caused the mods grief, well, I'm sorry for taking up your time. But honestly, if it takes "getting aggressive" to get honest, factual information out of sponsors - maybe it's time to reconsider that sponsor relationship.

I'd much rather see a premium membership option where the users can support the site vs. having to deal with treading lightly around sponsors who just want to use the forum as a dumping grounds for their inaccurate bike sales. We've seen sponsors do better than that, and any user who tried to do that should be rightfully lambasted for it. If we're gonna change the rules for sponsors, I'll pay my fees so I can call people acting like assholes assholes rather than getting to dance around the subject.

 

[sckego]

While I/we appreciate your desire to improve BARF, getting aggressive with a BARF Sponsor didn't do us any favors.

There was *one* post in the 690 thread that was somewhat out-of-line... it went something like, "Does this guy have any idea what he's selling?" Everything else was simply pointing out blatant errors, basic stuff like the displacement of the engine, the fueling system, and the VERY MODEL OF THE BIKE IN THE AD. And yet, a bunch of them got deleted, and the original post is still sitting there unfixed...

Being a BARF sponsor should get a vendor visibility to their target audience (us). If they chose to use that visibility to post things like "When is the last time you made a mistake at your job? Did you have 10,000++ people judging you, calling you are a f*****g idiot?," instead of simply saying, "Thanks for the feedback! We've corrected the ad," well... I know what it does to my perception of their business.

 

[Z3n]

I feel like the "PM them your feedback" is pointless. A PM doesn't help anyone - doesn't help shoppers know what to look out for, doesn't help people in the time between when the PM goes out and when the post gets updated (if it ever does...).

For example, they never updated the GSX-R ad. If Wicked4Racin had PMed them, no one would have known that their "stock bike" wasn't stock and had definitely been down, likely hard.

And of course, the counter to that is buyer beware, blah blah blah - but that's why we have craigslist. Isn't the whole idea supposed to be something a bit _better_?

 

[Lunch Box]

While I/we appreciate your desire to improve BARF, getting aggressive with a BARF Sponsor didn't do us any favors.

For the record, most of the comments I saw, including the ones I posted, were simple corrections. Rather than incorporate those corrections, the seller got defensive and lashed out. To top it off, he still did not correct the ad. I firmly believe that most of us were genuinely trying to help. I have sent an apologetic PM to him, along with some specific corrections to help him out.

If I were the seller/BARF sponsor, I would correct the ad and thank those who helped me. I might also ask the mods to delete the correction posts from folks after I fixed my ad, just to clean up the thread. His reaction was pretty surprising to me. I apologize for "thread crapping," but I can assure you that my intentions were honorable. I just want to help him get that thing sold. Listing the engine size and fueling type wrong are pretty significant errors.

 

[Enchanter]

Conan, the bigger picture here is your method of delivery can impact our relationship with this particular vendor and the others that read the threads here. While your motivation may be just, you are acting without considering Budman's relationship with our Sponsors.

This isn't about the content of your opinion(s), it's about your delivery.

 

[Lunch Box]

Conan, the bigger picture here is your method of delivery can impact our relationship with this particular vendor and the others that read the threads here. While your motivation may be just, you are acting without considering Budman's relationship with our Sponsors.

This isn't about the content of your opinion(s), it's about your delivery.

A fair point, for sure. Hence my PM to the vendor. Keep in mind that he is probably justifying his sponsorship of BARF by the fact that it helps him sell used bikes. Helping him be successful in selling those bikes *should* be a good thing, and it *should* help keep the sponsorship cycle going. I agree about delivery of the message, and I will keep that in mind going forward.

 

[byke]

The issue is not one sided. Knowingly leaving false information could be interpreted as fraud, which doesn't appear to be an issue with the mods. I said "appear" so don't freak out.