Cornering Theory (split from High side thread in Crash Analysis)

[Burning1]

I'm not sure who these "smart" people are that concur on some fairly loosely defined concept...but those I know and trust, we break down a turn into parts and figure out what we want from the turn and why. Explain how one gently accelerates through T7 at Sears, through T14 at Thill , T11 at Laguna, or T6 at Miller Motorsports. I'd argue if you do so, I'll beat you evertime on the exit, or at least part way down the adjoining straight. These aren't exceptions...they're just the landscape we call "riding".

I like to use an extremely late apex with (drum roll please) a little throttle on Turn 14 of Thunder Hill. I find that a late apex allows much more flexibility to set my speed and line through 15. Turn 15 is critical for the drive down the front straight.

Is it better than trail braking on that turn? I'll play with trail braking there a bit more.

From the books that happen to be sitting next to me on the desk, views from "smart people:"

David L. Houghs, Proficient motorcycling:
"The Ideal technique is to ease on the gas as you lean over and gradually roll on a little more throttle all the way through the turn."

Kieth Code, A Twist of the Wrist II:
"Each time you back off the throttle or slow your basic throttle roll-on through a turn, it costs time and stability."

Doug Chandler, A Twist of the Wrist II:
"I try to get the throttle on just before max lean angle for the turn. This is how you get the bike to settle into the turn comfortable."

 

[tzrider]

If we want to add steering mid turn, we don't need to add more lean angle, we simply need to add more weight to the inside...forcing the front wheel to steer more into the turn to stabilize the bike.

I should clarify that in this discussion when I say "lean angle" I haven't necessarily meant purely the bike's lean angle. As such, my usage is imprecise. What I should be saying is the angle of a vector from the contact patches to the center of mass. This takes the rider and his body position into account.

When you say "add more weight to the inside," I assume you mean move some part of your body more to the inside of the arc. If so, then we're pretty close to the same page. You'd be increasing the angle of the CoM to the tires, which tightens the arc. The front tire naturally points into the arc via it's trail.

 

[Dove]

For the record - what did Keith Code ever win? I've read his books and all, it's just...well, I dunno.

 

[Holeshot]

Ok, that first guy I've not heard of, but I'd suggest NOT adding lean angle and throttle...also consider that Chandler rides a bike differently (and used TC the last time he raced) than most riders who are learning. IOW, he's got a much better sense for what's going to happen when he rolls that throttle on as well. Consider your relative level and then consider the information you're trying to process...sneaking the throttle open earlier in a turn is a good thing...sticking to some static forumula is not. You're missing the basics for soundbites, truthfully. That = a trip to the moon in my world...

Andy, yesh we're close enough I think. We're saying the same things.

Dove: nothing. However that does not make the man an excellent instructor. Some of the top racing world has relied on Code and done awesome racing bikes. I'm not a big fan of all his methods, but I cannot discount his knowledge and effectiveness in the motorcycle world. His son regularly posts here (Darkie) and is quite knowledgeable and a nice guy. Will Eikenberry is also on the forum (balisitc), another Code instructor/ empolyee and quite a fast guy. I've raced against the Code guys...and they're quite good, some of them! Not sure if Andy still works for Keith...but I'd say Keith is quite an expert in his field, whether we chose to follow his advice or not.

 

[Burning1]

David L. Hough is an author and street rider. His book, Proficient Motorcycling is a very well respected work on the subject of street safety and motorcycling technique.

Holeshot, you're assuming a lot of things about my experience, knowledge, values, and abilities. If your goal is to help aspiring racers such as myself, you're doing yourself a huge disservice.

My approach to street riding has always been to isolate a single technique and improve upon it until it becomes second nature. Please keep in mind that I was a Martial Arts instructor for several years... I'm well qualified to choose my own training strategy.

I have my reasons for working with Doug Chandler's techniques. If you want to know those reasons, I'd be happy to share. If you can point out a flaw in my reasoning, I would be in your debt. Until then, I'll continue attacking things the way I have been.

 

[Holeshot]

I don't know Hough...that's not to say much of the quality of his work, I've just never heard of him, nor read his material. There's different ways to explain the methodology of riding and his I'm not familiar with. Some works, some is old fashioned and doesn't work as well for today's current crop of sport bikes.

I hope you can re-read what I wrote, and what Dave and Andy wrote, and understand that's it's not an attack on your personally, but rather a disagreement with the quality of some of comments made in your posts. I gather you've read a fair amount on the subject of riding technique, but have yet to put most of the concepts together in concert with one another...and if that comes as a slight, pardon the inference. It's really just reality: that with knowledge comes practical experience...and the two go hand in hand for a good understanding of what's going on. There's guys who can ride exceptionally well, yet not understand how to relate the concepts to aspiring quality riders. They know what to do, but they can't put it into words...that's what these books and questions purport to do: to make those of us (me included) without the natural ability to glean a small portion of technique from those that have it.

I have to admit, I have to guess on your level based on your comments. You're like me when I was a new racer kind of: full of information and short on the actual experience part...I thought I was something awesome! Now, years later, I realize there's so much more to know, nothing's an exact science, and there's plenty of those that know more and ride quicker...in short, I'm humbled...after $100K's later....so excuse me if I don't take the bait about my "goal is to help aspiring racers such as myself"...I know who desires help and who wishes to obtusely argue on the Internet over concepts they've mixed together in a non-too-practical manner. As I said above, I've learned plenty not from my successes, but rather my mistakes...and I've got ALOT of those in my riding trunk...

One thing about riding: it's quite different from other sports. Martial Arts is a great mind/ body exercise, but it has little to do with actually riding a motorcycle. It's as much help as me running 6@22 off...it just doesn't make much sense to try too hard to relate the Water Skiing and Riding. I say start fresh, it's a new sport! And yes, please chose your own strategy...the one great thing about this hobby are the individual choices which lead to success or failure, alone. That's a good way to look at riding!

But please, Burning1, do not act as if I should chase down "aspiring racers" such as yourself and pander to your ego. I don't agree with what you've written above, I believe your experience level to be just over 1 year of riding at most, a few trackdays possibly (2-3) and a general novice level rider. That is NOT a bad thing in the least...in fact, you're on your way to great times in the sport and now, that I've pissed you off, you've got someone to try and best! However, I'd suggest you consider the impact of imparting poor knowledge or technique onto lesser riders without truly knowing the practical side of the knowledge being related. There's alot of other guys on this forum that won't be as nice, and will eat some of the more asinine statements up! I'd urge you to do more listening than "teaching" at this point, until you're at the instructor level.

By "attacking things the way I see have been", I tend to think you desire no help from Dave, Tim, Andy, nor myself. Or perhaps it's simply myself. It really just comes across as noise to the remainder of those who read this forum, and he is quite distracting to some of the lurkers on what is the correct method for our relative material. I know the answer because I do have considerable experience figuring it all out, making it not work, then making it work...you can find me anytime instructing for free up at ZoomZoom's events because I like the Zoom Zoom crew and enjoy giving back to the sport what took me so long to gather! That doesn't mean I'm a better man, it simply means Shawn Riley and Vik Anderson believe in my experience and instructing style for our most advanced riders and should give a tad of credibility in a forum where most of the posters are anonymous users with little background weight to their statements. It does not mean I'm always correct...in fact I STILL Bug Ken Hill and Dave Stanton when working through a advanced concept I can't quite get. Don't forget: riders are getting quicker because the style/ technique for riding a bike is always evolving as well. We never stop learning!!!


I hope you understand I'm not aiming to attack you, but I don't think it's a good idea to not discount statements that aren't correct. Pretty much, I was giving you a long leash, but there comes a time when you've got to just call "bullshit"....ya know, and you've got some bullshit going on in a few areas.

Cheers man!

BTW: A late apex assumes one would want to pick up the throttle early and heavy...T14 isn't that type of turn. The point of T14 is to get setup for T15. IMO of course.

 

[Dove]

Some of the top racing world has relied on Code and done awesome racing bikes. I'm not a big fan of all his methods, but I cannot discount his knowledge and effectiveness in the motorcycle world. His son regularly posts here (Darkie) and is quite knowledgeable and a nice guy. Will Eikenberry is also on the forum (balisitc), another Code instructor/ empolyee and quite a fast guy. I've raced against the Code guys...and they're quite good, some of them! Not sure if Andy still works for Keith...but I'd say Keith is quite an expert in his field, whether we chose to follow his advice or not.

Holeshot - you and I are in full agreeance.

 

[NoQuarter]

...Code's school doesn't disregard braking at all, he just doesn't promote trail braking.
....

The particular Code school I attended most certainly disregarded braking. In fact, in the full 2 days of riding, we were specifically instructed to not touch the brakes, at all. The entire focus of the school was on using countersteering to very quickly lean the bike, then progressively applying the throttle to settle the chassis. I never went back to subsequent Level II, III, etc. Perhaps braking techniques are covered then, but I'd already found what I consider to be a better instructional path.

Like I've said, I found Code's school to be very informative with a lot of good drills and techniques. The man is a good teacher, no doubt. His schools have taught thousands of people to be better riders. That's awesome.

I simply don't buy the sentiment that "trail braking" is somehow and "advanced" technique, or even more laughably, that it "doesn't maximize the performance" of the machine. It is certaily the dominant technique in roadracing. The bikes are designed and tuned to maximize grip and feel at every point throughout the turn, not simply apex to exit.

Along those lines, any technique is highly dependent upon the type of machine and conditions of use. Riding a harley versus a sport bike versus a dirt bike all require different techniques. What doesn't change is the overarching need to manage your traction via two very small contact patches. Flat tracking is full on counter lock steering and sliding the rear maintaining control with the throttle, cruisers make use of plenty of rear brake, sport bikes at race pace on a track are nearly 100% front brake dependent to slow and turn.

 

[tzrider]

I simply don't buy the sentiment that "trail braking" is somehow and "advanced" technique, or even more laughably, that it "doesn't maximize the performance" of the machine. It is certaily the dominant technique in roadracing.

It's still a fact that the motorcycle provides more cornering grip when the rider is off the brakes and under light acceleration. That's the extent of the meaning of my remark.

There are approaches to corners that rely on trailbraking anyway, despite the above fact and they work fine. Maximizing grip is but one factor in a turn. Some lines are only possible when trailing the brakes and sometimes those lines are the best solution for a given riding problem.

 

[Holeshot]

Andy, what happens to the front suspension when you let off the brakes? What does that do for the trail? A compressed front end steers quicker than an extended front end. Of course we could set our bikes up to have very little rebound dampening...but that would make for some interesting other problems on acceleration.

 

[tzrider]

Andy, what happens to the front suspension when you let off the brakes? What does that do for the trail? A compressed front end steers quicker than an extended front end.

I have never ridden a motorcycle that steered quicker on the brakes than off. I've heard the point you raise above more times than I can remember and the logic that fork compression should shorten trail makes all the sense in the world. So, I had a hard time reconciling the idea that the trail should be shorter on the brakes with the bare fact that every motorcycle I've ever ridden steered more heavily on the brakes than off.

Tony Foale has offered an explanation that made some sense to me; perhaps it offers something for you to consider: He stated that the front tire deforms enough under braking to move the contact patch rearward. While fork compression should be shortening trail, tire deformation is lengthening it.

Whether or not Tony's explanation is the real cause, I have only experienced bikes steering more heavily on the brakes than off. Despite hearing so many claims to the contrary.

I have experimented with the relationship between steering effort and brakes quite a bit. On the approach to turn 3 at Streets, I spent a whole session approaching the turn point on the brakes while applying a bit of pressure to the inside bar, pre-loading it, if you will. I found that as I arrived at the turn point, I could release the brake lever and the bike would suddenly drop into the turn. I did not change the pressure I was placing on the inside bar at all. That indicates strongly that my bar pressure had much less effect on the bike when I was dragging the brake than when I released the brake. This wasn't a controlled experiment, but the difference in the behavior of the steering on and off the brakes was too obvious to miss.

Thoughts?

 

[stangmx13]

......
I have experimented with the relationship between steering effort and brakes quite a bit. On the approach to turn 3 at Streets, I spent a whole session approaching the turn point on the brakes while applying a bit of pressure to the inside bar, pre-loading it, if you will. I found that as I arrived at the turn point, I could release the brake lever and the bike would suddenly drop into the turn. I did not change the pressure I was placing on the inside bar at all. That indicates strongly that my bar pressure had much less effect on the bike when I was dragging the brake than when I released the brake. This wasn't a controlled experiment, but the difference in the behavior of the steering on and off the brakes was too obvious to miss.

Thoughts?

ahhh, i can agree w/ that one. i think the result is magnified because the turn is pretty steep downhill, thereby loading the front end even more. however, it was at this turn that ive found myself weighting the bars much much more than id like. are u confident that this aspect of riding isnt affecting your findings a bit?? obviously, even-weight on both bars to hold yourself up coming down into turn 3 would prevent the bike from turning even more than being on the brakes. im sure more experienced riders dont deal w/ this nearly as much as i do, but i had to ask.

 

[Burning1]

Holeshot, there's no question in my mind that people will rightly listen to you based on your teaching and your riding experience. Unfortunately, the problem with your arguments is that they boil down to either an appeal to authority or an ad hominem attack.

The reason I question your wisdom is that you don't seem to understand some of the most fundamental motorcycle riding techniques. Rolling on the gas through a turn is not a pie in the sky MotoGP strategy; it's something that was taught on day 2 of the MSF course. It's Chapter 1 of A twist of the wrist II and it's almost as basic as counter-steering.

Every comment I made I am willing to support with references. I can explain why I do things this way, and why I believe it works. In doing so, I allow other people the opportunity to question my knowledge. I am also given the opportunity to clarify, extend, or retract my statements.

If I am right, I can take pleasure in helping another motorcyclist. If I am wrong, I have an opportunity to improve myself.

Listen man, I was a full time professional teacher for 3 years. I know what it's like to have newbies question my wisdom. I also know that sometimes the newbie is correct.

I hope you understand I'm not aiming to attack you, but I don't think it's a good idea to not discount statements that aren't correct. Pretty much, I was giving you a long leash, but there comes a time when you've got to just call "bullshit"....ya know, and you've got some bullshit going on in a few areas.

Then call bullshit. But be sure to do your damned research. And be prepared to support your argument with something more convincing than "because I said so."

BTW: A late apex assumes one would want to pick up the throttle early and heavy...T14 isn't that type of turn. The point of T14 is to get setup for T15. IMO of course.

A late apex allows me to get on the gas far earlier than an early or mid apex line. I use this strategy because it works extremely well for me on the track.

I'd rather to be wrong than to right. Being right won't make me any faster.

 

[Var]

A late apex allows me to get on the gas far earlier than an early or mid apex line. I use this strategy because it works extremely well for me on the track.

what track? what turn?

you can't ride every single turn the same way. 14 at t-hill is supposed to slingshot you to the outside but you don't straighten the bike up, you tip it in hard into 15 and accelerate as hard as you possibly can out of 15. what's the point of late apexing 14 if you can only be on the gas for a split second, and you've messed up the entrance to 15?

did you even know what Holeshot was talking about or do you just want to argue?

 

[Enchanter]

Let me comment on this statement.

Rolling on the gas through a turn is not a pie in the sky MotoGP strategy; it's something that was taught on day 2 of the MSF course.

The reason the MSF teaches this is to gain stability (keeping the suspension stable).

Burning1,

When riding on a track what is your goal? Smoothness (w/control inputs)? Perfecting your 'line'? Lower lap time? Being in first place at the end?

If it is the first 2, the technique you use (rolling on from turn-in to exit) will assist you greatly. If your desire shifts to the last 2, you will soon discover that your technique will stop working for you. There are benefits to waiting to roll on until much later in the turn (due to trail braking for example).

How does rolling on the throttle help you when encountering traffic on corner entry? Mid turn? Corner exit?

A few last questions:
What is trail braking?
What is a benefit of using it?
What is a drawback of using it?

Thanks.

 

[tzrider]

A late apex allows me to get on the gas far earlier than an early or mid apex line. I use this strategy because it works extremely well for me on the track.

As you've been discussing T14 at T-Hill, it's a good example of a case where you want to put the turn into the context of what comes before and after it.

You probably know that you'll make the biggest difference in lap times by going faster in the fastest parts of the track. A late apex / early drive makes good sense when the turn precedes a long straightaway, as you can start accelerating sooner, resulting in you going faster for a longer period of time on the following straight.

T14 is an opposite scenario. A long straight precedes it; a short chute follows it. Any tactic that allows you to preserve your speed from the straight preceding the turn is a good idea in this case. Tactics that maximize your drive out of this turn are not as important here. There's more than one solution in this turn, but a lot of people make trail braking work very well there, as they can stay on the gas a little longer on the preceding straight.

 

[Burning1]

what track? what turn?

you can't ride every single turn the same way. 14 at t-hill is supposed to slingshot you to the outside but you don't straighten the bike up, you tip it in hard into 15 and accelerate as hard as you possibly can out of 15. what's the point of late apexing 14 if you can only be on the gas for a split second, and you've messed up the entrance to 15?

did you even know what Holeshot was talking about or do you just want to argue?

I should have been more clear: I was arguing that a late apex allows earlier use of the gas (despite Holeshot's statement to the contrary), not that it was necessarily the best technique for turn 14.

I use a late entry through turn 14. You're right that it's not a late apex in the sense that I described above. As I said to Holeshot, I will experiment with trail braking through that turn.

 

[Burning1]

When riding on a track what is your goal? Smoothness (w/control inputs)? Perfecting your 'line'? Lower lap time? Being in first place at the end?

As I am not actively racing, my primary goal when cornering is to improve my lap times and my secondary goal is to safely pass slower riders.

How does rolling on the throttle help you when encountering traffic on corner entry? Mid turn? Corner exit?

A few last questions:
What is trail braking?
What is a benefit of using it?
What is a drawback of using it?

Thanks.

Rolling on the throttle correctly provides more stability and traction. More traction allows for higher cornering speeds and a reduced likelihood of a washout.

Obviously, once roll on begins, I do not wish to roll off the throttle as the increased front wheel load of doing so may result in a low-side. If my line is blocked by a less experienced rider, other techniques would need to be used.

Let me ask you a few questions. In the scenario you describe:

- What is the skill level of the other riders?
- Are they actively attempting to block my pass (possibly using a brake check or trail braking?)
- Are they attempting to make up for lost time?
- Are they using ideal lines with ideal technique?

Since most of my passing is performed in low traffic situations against less experienced riders, I generally time my pass to occur at the corner exit. In this situation, I prefer to use superior lines to pass along with higher speed through the straightaway.

Since I don't have racing experience, I can't comment on the traffic situations.

1. Trail braking is the use of the brakes after the bike is leaned over. Generally, it's used with a later braking point, allowing more speed to be carried into the corner. Overall braking power is limited by available traction, and as the bike is leaned further forward, less braking can be used.

2. Trail braking allows more speed to be carried into a corner, allowing the user to pass other riders who use an earlier braking point.

- Trail braking can be used to an advantage in most corners by a skillful rider without modifying that riders lines.

- By slowing the turn in, trail braking can be used much deeper into the corner. This technique requires modification to the riders lines, often including an earlier apex. It is best applied in a series of corners, where maximum exit speed out of the first turn is not critical, and the modified lines will not impact the drive out of the final corner.

Trail braking can be applied in such a way as to improve overall lap times, so long as it does not significantly effect the drive out of a series of corners. Trail braking can also be applied to pass and block other riders, at the cost of overall speed.

3. Trail braking provides an increased risk of low siding the motorcycle when mis-applied. Using modified lines to support heavier trail braking may sacrifice overall lap times. Additionally, trail braking requires attention from the rider, possibly distracting him or her from other riding tasks.

What did I miss?

 

[tzrider]

- Trail braking can be used to an advantage in most corners by a skillful rider without modifying that riders lines.

You'll almost certainly be on a different line trail braking than not trail braking. Consider the late, quick turn scenario. You cannot do that trailing the brakes.

 

[Burning1]

You'll almost certainly be on a different line trail braking than not trail braking. Consider the late, quick turn scenario. You cannot do that trailing the brakes.

Lets say I wanted to use a quick turn in, late apex corner.

Wouldn't it be possible to ride the brakes all the way to the turn in point, and then trail them off quickly as I bring the bike over?

How much would I have to modify my lines?