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Insurance fiasco
- Thread starter balddevil
- Start date
afmotorsports
New member
Don't believe it. CMRA (based out of Texas) has a bunch if classes where kids race and they don't have any issues. I know for a fact that they go through the same insurance company as the AFM.
ZXR400SP
New member
Here's some feedback for you, in this climate of litigation, everyone in business for themselves should carry liability insurance. I've only been a photographer for 20 years. That's how I make a living, and 20 years ago it was recommended that I should carry liability insurance. This is nothing new for a working photographer. Do most have it, I don't know, should they, yes. It's just another part of the cost of doing business.
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reedcrr
Guest
Well then there should not be an issue... look Alex the only thing that has changed in light of insurance from last year to this years is two fold. A change in provider and a change in what is covered.
Maybe the Texas group is covered by the same carrier but the rider is written differently, since we cant compare both polices side by side that is up for argument and speculation.
The biggest problem here is the serious lack of communication. As stated above by Charles the BOD was elected and entrusted to run the club and they should do so, however no company runs very well in a vacuum.
No matter what company you are in matters of financial responsibility and major changes to the company structure are brought before the board and if need be the shareholders. (if it is a publicly traded company)
In this case the AFM is a not for profit company and the membership is the club and money provided by them is used to secure tracks and put on races... in this case the addition of another racing orginization during the race weekend should have been put to a vote before the membership as it has direct impact on everything from vendor relations to how much time the membership gets on the track. This is common sense stuff here.
Transparency in a not-for-profit company is the way to succeed. One of the main reasons your idea regarding the WebEx was shot down was not because of cost but rather the board wanted to meet face to face and have as little interaction with the general membership as possible. I mean could you imagine how many items would be left on the table if you started getting questions from the membership about why a decision was made? This is probably why the meetings are not held at the track... quite simply it is easier to move through the meeting without interruptions from the peanut gallery.
Besides discussions about possible suspensions the board should be open about everything it discusses... I loved the idea regarding the WebEx... my first thought was yeah they finally get it... we want to be involved! problem is we cant make it to that damn restaurant! I was sad when the idea got shot down... I think you should push for the meetings to be held Saturaday night at whatever track the race is being held, all of you board members are there anyways.
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reedcrr
Guest
Why do you have it though? I realize it was recommended to you... but why? What could you possibly do from the infield taking pictures that could ever get you caught up in litigation? Taking photos during an event is public domain so that is not the issue... please explain in detail the reason why you have it, rather then just saying it's an industry standard.
I know why I have professional liability insurance... it is because I design machines that make drugs which are consumed by people... people could die as a result of a bad batch so I have insurance to cover me just in case that ever does happen... common sense there... but taking a picture? No one is going to die because of that...
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Reedcr, you're missing the meat of why the insurance was changed: the AFM was UNDERCOVERED and the previous insurer WOULD NOT UP THE POLICY LIMITS. Please, tell me you understand that much. If you do, we can go forward for you to understand the remainder. There was no way, no how we could stay with our previous insurer. This was a board voted unanimous decision BTW.
I wonder, why do you pay any insurance at all? Why not just have your customers sign a waiver and call it good? It's not like you'll ever make a mistake to get sued for correct? so why the professional insurance? Why is a guy who claims the AFM's move to protect itself from lawsuits, and thus dissolution, was an unneeded move; why is that guy insuring himself at all?
Obtuse. That's where we've gotten to in this discussion. People understand, but they don't want to understand...
For the record, and because I apparently pick up FACTS better than others here, RACE READY MOTORSPORTS final policy amount looks to be $490.32 FOR THE ENTIRE YEAR. That's $81.72 an event, if spread across the AFM and not any PTT trackdays Ken might attend. It's a shame to see Ken not at the AFM events, but to torch a business opportunity and relationship for $490.32 has me wondering...
One more thing Reed: please send a note to Ken as well about him needing this "business 101" class. His claim was he didn't make any profit at the AFM events. Either you're a hypocrite or obtuse. which is it? I read your posts and yet you're one of the guys who NEVER contacted me looking for further answers or more information. That's telling.
One last question: how old is that AFM'er girl who won the 600 race at BW?
I wonder, why do you pay any insurance at all? Why not just have your customers sign a waiver and call it good? It's not like you'll ever make a mistake to get sued for correct? so why the professional insurance? Why is a guy who claims the AFM's move to protect itself from lawsuits, and thus dissolution, was an unneeded move; why is that guy insuring himself at all?
Obtuse. That's where we've gotten to in this discussion. People understand, but they don't want to understand...
For the record, and because I apparently pick up FACTS better than others here, RACE READY MOTORSPORTS final policy amount looks to be $490.32 FOR THE ENTIRE YEAR. That's $81.72 an event, if spread across the AFM and not any PTT trackdays Ken might attend. It's a shame to see Ken not at the AFM events, but to torch a business opportunity and relationship for $490.32 has me wondering...
One more thing Reed: please send a note to Ken as well about him needing this "business 101" class. His claim was he didn't make any profit at the AFM events. Either you're a hypocrite or obtuse. which is it? I read your posts and yet you're one of the guys who NEVER contacted me looking for further answers or more information. That's telling.
One last question: how old is that AFM'er girl who won the 600 race at BW?
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reedcrr
Guest
Berto please go back and reread Eric's post... in that post he specifically stated why the rider was rewritten and why he was asked to quote. he also mentioned that 80% of the total policy was going to remain with the previous carrier under that same policy... care to guess what part of the policy that was? Look I appreciate that you are fighting for the cause but you have been mislead or you fail to see the truth.
I dont know Ken... never met him, never used his services and I dont know his financial burdens... I can read the text of the insurance agent though and the martyr bit was a bit hilarious, I had to call him on his obvious BS... he cashed a check just like he should of... he is not losing any business at all nor is he going broke, he made money off of the AFM... good for him, at least someone is doing well in this economy.
I have this forum in which to contact you and Alex and the rest of the board... although you seem to take things a bit too personal so I refrain from contacting you directly, I am not about to get in to a knock down drag out with you over this or any other AFM topic... just not worth it for me, in the end this org has survived many years of BS and it will survive this BS as well.
Just so we are very clear... It is my opinion that the current board is doing a shitty job with regard to communication and is doing a shitty job with regard to protecting the interests of the general membership... this thread and the other is a clear indication of that... doesn't it bother you that most of the board doesn't know that whole story as to why the insurance was actually changed? It is my opinion and I am entitled to it... if you did not want to be criticized you should have never run for the position. I voted for you because I thought that you much like Alex would be the voice of common sense... I can see that I misplaced my trust, politics as usual. Carry on this conversation without me Berto I am done because it is very obvious that nothing we do or say on this forum or the other forum is going to change what has already been done, sad but true.
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reedcrr
Guest
I am happy she won, she is very talented at her young age... but at what cost was she allowed to race?
synfinatic
Wannabe Fast Guy
Eric,
Thank you for the information. It was good to hear your side of this complex situation.
Thank you for the information. It was good to hear your side of this complex situation.
ZXR400SP
New member
No offense but that's a very limited view of a photographers activities at the track or anywhere else for that matter. How bout this one, as unlikely as it may be, photographer crossing track drops lens cover, I have some the size of a salad plate, but the photographer doesn't realize it. Rider hits it and crashes taking out three other riders, first rider says it wasn't my fault, I hit something, turns out it was equipment from a photographer. Even though the rider signed a release it doesn't exclude negligence. Think that cap on the track might fall under negligent behavior? Also, not that the AFM turnworkers would allow it but I've seen photographers put themselves in impact areas to get a better shot as well, could that be considered negligent?
For me, I do location work, lighting, mounting remote cameras, etc... Things fall over, especially light stands on windy days, people trip on cords, if it can happen it will. I'm not saying that the track photogs will ever be sued, but it's possible, and I'd bet the AFM would be named as well.
And whether they have money or not, attorneys fees alone would be more than the cost of the insurance. Again, it's the cost of doing business these days.
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Reed, I don't have to "Guess" what the other 80% of the policy that wasn't rewritten is for. Don't forget Reed: because of our decision, the club will be protected from liability in the best way available and we'll be able to race in the years coming. That's our job as board members: to protect the viability of the AFM and make sure the AFM is allowed to pursue it's #1 objective: get bikes on track for races. EVERYTHING else is ancillary.
Thanks for your vote. Shame I won't get it again, if I run a 2nd time. once seems enough so far.
You missed answering a few of my questions. I understand not liking the decision, but the board took the right action here. How long have you been a member of the AFM? How long did our actions allow the club to exist going forward? Would you operate your business with no insurance? Also, please re-read the agents post. You've missed the part about age being the determining issue. COVERAGE was the issue. We were not able to secure the correct coverage limits going forward from our previous carrier. You understand that much correct?
If you see me at the track and want a complete scene of details from which to form an opinion, feel free to ask. I'm always available.
Thanks for your vote. Shame I won't get it again, if I run a 2nd time. once seems enough so far.
You missed answering a few of my questions. I understand not liking the decision, but the board took the right action here. How long have you been a member of the AFM? How long did our actions allow the club to exist going forward? Would you operate your business with no insurance? Also, please re-read the agents post. You've missed the part about age being the determining issue. COVERAGE was the issue. We were not able to secure the correct coverage limits going forward from our previous carrier. You understand that much correct?
If you see me at the track and want a complete scene of details from which to form an opinion, feel free to ask. I'm always available.
ZXR400SP
New member
Just for grins I went online, typed in photographer liability insurance, clicked on a link, filled out the form, got a phone call an hour later with a couple questions, 1/2 hour later I get a quote for a 1,000,000 general liability policy, $500/year, and it could be paid with just over half up front and payments of less than $30/month. Damn that was hard! 
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reedcrr
Guest
Thanks for explaining... limited view for sure as I am not a trackside photographer, not trying to bag on you just curious as to why... this helps.
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reedcrr
Guest
Liability is obviously very important... the absence of it is not my argument in the slightest. I am all for it... the more protection the better. It is my view of all that I have read and discussion I have been in that the primary cause to this mess was the allowance of the USGPRU, if this is not the case then I apologize.
I still think the inclusion of the USGPRU should have been a voted on measure by the membership and it is my opinion that if they had been voted against then most if not all of this mess would have not happened. I could be wrong though, I have been known to be so in the past.
I have been a part of the AFM for the last 4 years... not a long time granted compared to most and I realize I am only one person but I cant be the only one whom views what has happened in the way I have described, maybe I am. I am good friends with both of the track managers at both BW and Thill and it surprised me that they both were in complete disagreement as the the AFM's official story as stated in the AFM forum by Shawn... again a huge disconnect but in the end I came to realize it really doesnt matter... hopefully the vendor I use the most will be able to get his cert and provide his service... maybe both of them were feeding me a line to keep the heat off of themselves... it has been known to happen.
I understand your position quite well but it amazes me that other board members dont feel the same way, actually quite the opposite. Alex appears to be under the same impression that the reason for the misguided change was the age limit and he has cited another org as his reference... am I reading his take on this incorrectly also?
I carry professional insurance to cover my ass but I am not insured for the drug themselves because there is no need.
If I see you at the track I will root for you to win your class... since that is why you are there in the first place...
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reedcrr
Guest
Just for grins I went online, typed in photographer liability insurance, clicked on a link, filled out the form, got a phone call an hour later with a couple questions, 1/2 hour later I get a quote for a 1,000,000 general liability policy, $500/year, and it could be paid with just over half up front and payments of less than $30/month. Damn that was hard!
I wish my liability insurance was that cheap...
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Thanks for the rooting Reed...I need it against the kids in my class alone...trust me, I'd LOVE to not have them around at all for my own selfish sake.
Alex and I are in complete disagreement on this entire issue. You couldn't be more far apart, from how to discuss it on the internet, to the responsibilities owed to the AFM and membership VS. the AFM's vendors. I'd say this issue might very well define the schism between Alex and I, which is a shame.
Alex and I are in complete disagreement on this entire issue. You couldn't be more far apart, from how to discuss it on the internet, to the responsibilities owed to the AFM and membership VS. the AFM's vendors. I'd say this issue might very well define the schism between Alex and I, which is a shame.
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reedcrr
Guest
Nothing is ever set in stone...
PantyBuncher
New member
like it or not, Alex has an _excellent_ track record on being available, informative, correct, and even discreet when necessary. other BOD members, less so. your posts on the afm forum indicate that you directly misunderstood at least one of the aspects of the insurance, so stop saying you know everything. you obviously don't.
anyway, past performance is not proof of future performance, but it's usually a good indicator. just something to think about. for example, we know what happened every time we raced each other in the past, and the same results will probably happen in the future too. pretty likely. i'm pretty sure Alex is mostly correct on his reporting of the facts, his knowledge of the landscape, and his position as to what should have been done. most likely, if you are disagreeing with him, you're wrong.
anyway, past performance is not proof of future performance, but it's usually a good indicator. just something to think about. for example, we know what happened every time we raced each other in the past, and the same results will probably happen in the future too. pretty likely. i'm pretty sure Alex is mostly correct on his reporting of the facts, his knowledge of the landscape, and his position as to what should have been done. most likely, if you are disagreeing with him, you're wrong.
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Andy, if you want to come 600 racing again, bring the 750. I won't protest. I promise. Or better yet, I'll just bring my 600 to the 750 race and we'll test that theory.
The difference between Alex and myself (imo of course), is that I care more about how the AFM is percieved VS how myself is percieved AND when I make a mistatement or mistake, I own up to that mistake. If you're going to hang your hat that because I missed the change in photof requirements, that I have nothing else correct; we won't find any middle ground.
If you want to see Alex being correct, you only need go so far back as the 7/8 race thread and the views presented on race participation this season. To date, it's much lower than last season, as expected. If you wish so much for the truth, you should join the board AC. That's the only place where nothing is left to the immagination. Despite your comments against me, I've said I would and I have voted for your efforts in the past. It's never been about liking the man, but rather about trusting his experience and instincts.
Then again, I'd think it good sense to not go against ones tires supplier as well. Hopefully, that has no value in this argument, but with such a glowing report on Alex, I can't help but ask the question.
You can be 100% sure Andy, I, along with the 9 other members of the board, are 100% correct on this issue, for the AFM to race in 2009. What would that make Alex and yourself and no AFM racing in 2009?
The difference between Alex and myself (imo of course), is that I care more about how the AFM is percieved VS how myself is percieved AND when I make a mistatement or mistake, I own up to that mistake. If you're going to hang your hat that because I missed the change in photof requirements, that I have nothing else correct; we won't find any middle ground.
If you want to see Alex being correct, you only need go so far back as the 7/8 race thread and the views presented on race participation this season. To date, it's much lower than last season, as expected. If you wish so much for the truth, you should join the board AC. That's the only place where nothing is left to the immagination. Despite your comments against me, I've said I would and I have voted for your efforts in the past. It's never been about liking the man, but rather about trusting his experience and instincts.
Then again, I'd think it good sense to not go against ones tires supplier as well. Hopefully, that has no value in this argument, but with such a glowing report on Alex, I can't help but ask the question.
You can be 100% sure Andy, I, along with the 9 other members of the board, are 100% correct on this issue, for the AFM to race in 2009. What would that make Alex and yourself and no AFM racing in 2009?
why? economy?
if I understand correct circumstances why it turned that way it has nothing to do with economy.