Lets talk: UNIONS

[mean dad]

All I will comment is that the union 'porters' and staff of the Moscone center are the reason that my industry's annual convention - Lightfair - stopped going to San Francisco.

It was impossible to get things done efficiently there, we go to San Diego now instead.

"Nice Work, boys. "

We used to do trade shows there, and a buddy and I almost got the shit kicked out of us by union thugs for carrying our own gear inside. A group of Very Large dudes encircled us and wanted to know why we were taking their job.
Part of my brain was thinking "Oh fuck, this is going to hurt a lot and cops aren't going to do shit". I was legitimately concerned for my facial features right then.

You can see them with their walkie talkies, looking for anyone that dares to pick up more than a screwdriver.

 

[sasquatch]

What if they form a union and you just ignore their demands?
They strike and you hire new people?

 

[Climber]

This statement illustrates the problem. The oligarchy in this country created the financial meltdown. They then say "You are lucky to have a job" while continuing to hold down wages. You can look at the data and see the decrease in real wages for decades.

These depressions/recessions are a tool to further consolidate wealth into the hands of a few. The end game is destructive to everyone. Lack of stability, lack of safety, general chaos and disorder. Hard work should be rewarded. Corrupt political and business practices should not.

I am surprised more of the extreme wealthy are not killed. I can tell you if I was a laborer at a company that was torpedoed like Hostess and I lost everything, I would kill everyone I could find responsible. At least my kids would get survivor benefits from Social Security.

It doesn't happen very often because people have become sheep (sheople) and it's unthinkable to kill such a fine upstanding person who has become an executive because of their obvious superiority (They make more, don't they?).

</sarcasm>

 

[jdhu]

I am surprised more of the extreme wealthy are not killed. I can tell you if I was a laborer at a company that was torpedoed like Hostess and I lost everything, I would kill everyone I could find responsible. At least my kids would get survivor benefits from Social Security.

You sound insane.

 

[jdhu]

Unions are simply labor organizing itself to ensure it gets a fair shake in the marketplace. In that sense it's as capitalistic as any other transaction. If you don't want people to unionize then automate.

LOL, right! Agree. Companies need to automate if faced with unreasonable demands.

 

[CocoLoco]

LOL, right! Agree. Companies need to automate if faced with unreasonable demands.

It's a transaction just like any other in the market. At some point even the "overseers" of the automatons will organize if need be.

P.S. Self driving vehicles are going to crush the labor market in the cab and trucking industry, and transportation in general. First it will be cars. Then it will be trucks. Then air couriers and finally passenger airlines. Rail will also be tucked somewhere in there somewhere.

 

[My900ss]

If your question is posed as a simple curiosity, then enjoy the replies in this thread. If you are actually in a related situation then talk to a lawyer.

Say I own a business and there are 50 drivers for some trucks. 50 line workers. 50 retail clerks. 50 people in the "front office".
The 50 drivers decide to form a union and collectively bargain. They want higher wages and better conditions (hours, trucks, rules around that etc.). I'm paying them $20 an hour, they want $25 an hour.
What are my options? What if I think their demands are outrageous? Can I simply hire NON-union workers?

In this example as "Truck Driver" is a low, medium at best, skill, you could simply hire new truck drivers if the labor pool had licensed people willing to take a job. Another option is you could outsource the deliver to DHL, FedEx, UPS etc if it made financial sense.

Now if two or more of those groups banded to gather to collectively bargain with you under one or more union rep... you may be forced to negotiate as can you sustain daily operations while trying to fill 150 suddenly vacant positions of differing skill sets? I.E. negotiating with the Union is the lessor of two evils.

The reality behind the Union / Company relationship is certainly more complicated than discussed in this thread and very different from State to State and Industry to Industry.

 

[jdhu]

It's a transaction just like any other in the market. At some point even the "overseers" of the automatons will organize if need be.

P.S. Self driving vehicles are going to crush the labor market in the cab and trucking industry, and transportation in general. First it will be cars. Then it will be trucks. Then air couriers and finally passenger airlines. Rail will also be tucked somewhere in there somewhere.

Agree, and I think that's wonderful! It's just like any other outmoded technology. There will be disruption (think about the PC and how many administrative jobs it rendered outdated).

Are you saying the machines might somehow organize, or at least, those that make them will do so? Interesting.......

 

[Climber]

P.S. Self driving vehicles are going to crush the labor market in the cab and trucking industry, and transportation in general. First it will be cars. Then it will be trucks. Then air couriers and finally passenger airlines. Rail will also be tucked somewhere in there somewhere.

We're a ways away from automated cars being the majority of vehicles on the road, there are companies hopping on the bandwagon but they still have a ton of things to sort out. It's not the ability for the cars/vehicles to drive down the highway or navigate streets, it's the exceptions where something unexpected happens and the programming simply can't deal with it that will take years of testing.

 

[jdhu]

So, help me understand how the hell unions work. I just don't get it.

Say I own a business and there are 50 drivers for some trucks. 50 line workers. 50 retail clerks. 50 people in the "front office".

The 50 drivers decide to form a union and collectively bargain. They want higher wages and better conditions (hours, trucks, rules around that etc.). I'm paying them $20 an hour, they want $25 an hour.

What are my options? What if I think their demands are outrageous? Can I simply hire NON-union workers?

Help me understand how this works and what options I have.. seems like such an archaic concept given all the regulations and workplace safety stuff with OSHA and all. What about free market, capitalism, etc? People's arms arent getting hacked off on the regular.

Educate me.

For starters, read legal blogs and the statute (see 1102, then see 1103 for consequences):

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=lab&group=01001-02000&file=1101-1106

 

[CocoLoco]

We're a ways away from automated cars being the majority of vehicles on the road, there are companies hopping on the bandwagon but they still have a ton of things to sort out. It's not the ability for the cars/vehicles to drive down the highway or navigate streets, it's the exceptions where something unexpected happens and the programming simply can't deal with it that will take years of testing.

It's going to be like flipping a switch. And when it's flipped there are going to be a shit ton of folks out of work. Better to start planning for that now instead of trying to manage it when we're up to our necks.

 

[mercurial]

Knowing nothing about unions except that employers can't fire employees merely because they unionize or have the intent to unionize, I think the way an employer can fight against a union is by discouraging the workers through advocacy against unionization, and then refusing to agree to a contract that meets the union's requirements. Then if the newly unionized members exercise their personal liberty to strike, the company may exercise it's liberty to replace those employees so that business operations may be least affected.

 

[Indio]

Because the law says they're free to organize and management cannot get in their way. Firing them for attempting to organize is exactly that. The NLRB will have a field day making an example out of ducky_fresh.

I don't really have time to explain the rest. You've received good advice from people who have lots of experience with unions. If you're serious, you'll take it. If not, then there's not much anyone can do to help you.

I recall Walmart fired every butcher in a store (can't recall which store and state) as the butchers voted for unionization. After firing them Walmart moved to selling pre-packaged cuts. So I am not sure that just because a group of people vote to unionize it is given that creation of a union is done deal. But of course that is Walmart with a big legal team vs a small business owner in this case.

 

[CocoLoco]

I recall Walmart fired every butcher in a store (can't recall which store and state) as the butchers voted for unionization. After firing them Walmart moved to selling pre-packaged cuts. So I am not sure that just because a group of people vote to unionize it is given that creation of a union is done deal. But of course that is Walmart with a big legal team vs a small business owner in this case.

A business can't use the move toward unionization as a pretext to fire employees. In the case you've cited Walmart's defense was that they no longer needed the positions so they let them all go.

 

[mean dad]

I recall Walmart fired every butcher in a store (can't recall which store and state) as the butchers voted for unionization. After firing them Walmart moved to selling pre-packaged cuts. So I am not sure that just because a group of people vote to unionize it is given that creation of a union is done deal. But of course that is Walmart with a big legal team vs a small business owner in this case.

They didn't fire anyone, they eliminated every butcher counter in their stores for that state, and a few neighboring states.

WalMart says the closures had nothing to do with employees attempting to unionize.

 

[mercurial]

That sounds like a legally legit strategy too. Just discontinue operations before the union efforts metastasize.

 

[CocoLoco]

And it works...so long as you don't need the labor in those services any longer. The OP is in a pinch. Can't fire the drivers because they are moving toward unionizing and then hire more drivers.

The best thing would be to sit down. Review the books. See if there is any give on that side of the table and then negotiate a settlement before the union is formed. Happy employees (appropriately compensated) don't form unions. If there is no give in the books then NDA the leaders of the union movement and show them the books. Let them see that there isn't anything to negotiate. Let them make the choice to either leave because the business is shit or stay on in support of hoping things get better.

 

[JakesKTM]

This statement illustrates the problem. The oligarchy in this country created the financial meltdown. They then say "You are lucky to have a job" while continuing to hold down wages. You can look at the data and see the decrease in real wages for decades.

These depressions/recessions are a tool to further consolidate wealth into the hands of a few. The end game is destructive to everyone. Lack of stability, lack of safety, general chaos and disorder. Hard work should be rewarded. Corrupt political and business practices should not.

I am surprised more of the extreme wealthy are not killed. I can tell you if I was a laborer at a company that was torpedoed like Hostess and I lost everything, I would kill everyone I could find responsible. At least my kids would get survivor benefits from Social Security.

This a million times. But the super wealthy stay behing locked doors, gated communities, and off the public radar.

 

[UDRider]

And it works...so long as you don't need the labor in those services any longer. The OP is in a pinch. Can't fire the drivers because they are moving toward unionizing and then hire more drivers.

The best thing would be to sit down. Review the books. See if there is any give on that side of the table and then negotiate a settlement before the union is formed. Happy employees (appropriately compensated) don't form unions. If there is no give in the books then NDA the leaders of the union movement and show them the books. Let them see that there isn't anything to negotiate. Let them make the choice to either leave because the business is shit or stay on in support of hoping things get better.

or squeeze the business dry until it dies of and move on.

 

[CocoLoco]

or squeeze the business dry until it dies of and move on.

Sorry, if the business dries up that's not on the employees. That's completely tied to the market and the folks running the show.