Lets talk: UNIONS

[JakesKTM]

We're a ways away from automated cars being the majority of vehicles on the road, there are companies hopping on the bandwagon but they still have a ton of things to sort out. It's not the ability for the cars/vehicles to drive down the highway or navigate streets, it's the exceptions where something unexpected happens and the programming simply can't deal with it that will take years of testing.

In 20 years only the rich will drive!

 

[UDRider]

Sorry, if the business dries up that's not on the employees. That's completely tied to the market and the folks running the show.

Not unless business was forced to increase compensation to make it non profitable or margins so thin it's one down turn from going under.

 

[CocoLoco]

Not unless business was forced to increase compensation to make it non profitable or margins so thin it's one down turn from going under.

Hence pulling the labor leaders in and sharing the books with them under NDA. They will get the picture and let the rest of the folks know there is no room for negotiation. Then the labor pool has an option. Stick around in hopes that management can get things moving in a positive direction or leave for better opportunity. If there is no room for negotiation and the prospects of that changing aren't on the horizon then the business model is failing and everyone will be out of a job eventually anyway.

 

[Hawaiirider]

We used to do trade shows there, and a buddy and I almost got the shit kicked out of us by union thugs for carrying our own gear inside. A group of Very Large dudes encircled us and wanted to know why we were taking their job.
Part of my brain was thinking "Oh fuck, this is going to hurt a lot and cops aren't going to do shit". I was legitimately concerned for my facial features right then.

You can see them with their walkie talkies, looking for anyone that dares to pick up more than a screwdriver.

Yep. This.

Arrived at the site early one morning for a breakfast meeting, a handful of thugs had stopped the president of one of the exhibitors ( B-K Lighting of Madera) and told him he couldn't transport THREE BOXES OF PASTRIES down an escalator to the show floor because "That has to be done by the union."

"Okay, says (the late) Doug Hagen, "then take these down the darn escalator for me."

"Porters don't start until 8 "
( I look at my watch and it's 8:05am...)

"So....You are telling me that I can't do this simple thing, and that YOU have to do it, and you WON'T DO IT ? "

"Yep"

Good-bye Moscone center.

 

[Hawaiirider]

They didn't fire anyone, they eliminated every butcher counter in their stores for that state, and a few neighboring states.

WalMart says the closures had nothing to do with employees attempting to unionize.

In the case I am most familiar with, our division of Servco Pacific ( Hawaii conglomerate ) had the local IBEW basically romance the tech/service department of an electronics division - guys that I was very well aware made a good wage and had a good working condition and benefit package.

Union vote was taken, they got certified.

Now, I don't know how much you know about the Asian mind-set, but...well one thing you are NOT going to do to a company owned by a traditional Japanese-American family is Tell THEM How It's Gonna Be.

I left later that month, seeing the writing on the wall ( I worked in the sales department - big surprise ).

Six months later the entire division was dissolved. We had been profitable for 15 years but corporate was not about to get sucked into an ugly fight over a small sector of the company, so they sold off what they could, moved some staff into other areas and cut the rest loose.

Nobody won there.

 

[CocoLoco]

I think the most glaring truth in both your story and any stories like this is that the union actually made the company stronger by leaning it out. Not sure how "nobody one" is the conclusion to be drawn. Maybe the customers lost out (less service) but the net result for the company was positive. It just forced them to take a very hard look at what the service they provided against the cost of providing it.

 

[oobus]

I think the most glaring truth in both your story and any stories like this is that the union actually made the company stronger by leaning it out. Not sure how "nobody one" is the conclusion to be drawn. Maybe the customers lost out (less service) but the net result for the company was positive. It just forced them to take a very hard look at what the service they provided against the cost of providing it.

Let me guess, you've never been self employed before. Would you just walk away from your grandfathers business that was falling on lean times?

 

[CocoLoco]

Let me guess, you've never been self employed before. Would you just walk away from your grandfathers business that was falling on lean times?

I don't think I understand the context of your question relative to what I've posted on the matter so far? Where did I ever say emotions weren't involved. In fact I already said that a person in the OP situation may want to pull the leadership of the unionization movement into the office, have them sign and NDA, and then go over the books with them so that they can see where the business stands. After that, the OP could make a case for where he thinks the business is going in hopes that people will stick around and help pull back from the brink.

Do you think it's fair that the employees should sink without knowing it's happening? Aren't their families and futures just as important as the OP?

 

[UDRider]

I don't think I understand the context of your question relative to what I've posted on the matter so far? Where did I ever say emotions weren't involved. In fact I already said that a person in the OP situation may want to pull the leadership of the unionization movement into the office, have them sign and NDA, and then go over the books with them so that they can see where the business stands. After that, the OP could make a case for where he thinks the business is going in hopes that people will stick around and help pull back from the brink.

Do you think it's fair that the employees should sink without knowing it's happening? Aren't their families and futures just as important as the OP?

You assume the leadership of unionization are rational. That is a dangerous assumption to make. People have a great ability to rationalize choices that in long term will impact them negatively.

 

[CocoLoco]

You assume the leadership of unionization are rational. That is a dangerous assumption to make. People have a great ability to rationalize choices that in long term will impact them negatively.

If either side has trouble behaving rationally then all bets are off.

Aside from that the OP sounded like this was an issue of the moment. Situations change. I think the point I'm trying to make is that it behooves all involved to work together in times of lean as well as thick. Getting over on somebody is the surest way to spoil a relationship. Being honest and open about the state of the business will end up serving everyone's best interest in the long run.

 

[Zerox]

Scroll the Sink real fast when seeing this thread title and.....

 

[CocoLoco]

Scroll the Sink real fast when seeing this thread title and.....

Stop...I'm starting to cry.

 

[bikeama]

You assume the leadership of unionization are rational. That is a dangerous assumption to make. People have a great ability to rationalize choices that in long term will impact them negatively.

True

There is a reason negotiations are secret. Can say now that the plant has closed. The company had a max 6 weeks vacation for most employees. The Teamsters contract was for 4 weeks max vacation. We, the company put 6 weeks max on the table as a counter to a $0.15 per hour raise on a job we did not feel deserved the raise and to keep all plants the same vacation. Union said OK and then 2 days later reversed and wanted the $0.15 raise and not the increase in vacation. I know a few long term mechanics who if they knew the union said no on them getting 6 weeks vacation would have had a very personal talk with the Union Rep.

 

[Climber]

You assume the leadership of unionization are rational. That is a dangerous assumption to make. People have a great ability to rationalize choices that in long term will impact them negatively.

I know of at least one union rep who has sold out the people she's supposed to represent. She kept the MOU away from them for 2 years after the negotiations completed, never helps them with a problem and tries to get them to admit things that would only benefit the other side.

 

[Ogier le Danois]

You sound insane.

No you.

 

[Ogier le Danois]

Not unless business was forced to increase compensation to make it non profitable or margins so thin it's one down turn from going under.

Profitability is often curated to match the intent of a certain group - usually the corporation governing board.

For example trucking (as I mentioned earlier). Truck drivers were earning the equivalent of $80,000 in 1980 before deregulation. Do you really believe trucking companies weren't making a profit before deregulation? Truck drives make about 1/2 that now. Where did the extra money go? Into the pockets of a smaller group of people controlling the capital.

Another example: Montana power. Wages were significantly higher than the rest of the state. Power was cheaper than almost any other state. Montana Power still produced a profit each year. The state deregulated. Montana Power sold off its power generation facilities and then went bankrupt. A few people were enriched beyond imagining (including legislators and the governor), power prices rose (the newly formed companies controlling prior assets could now sell to anyone in the country, and wages dropped.

The move to deregulate and union bust is often predicated on profitability/loss claims. It is fiction to skim as much money as possible. Add in trade agreements like NAFTA and GATT and TPP and you further erode Labors position. The biggest loser in NAFTA was the blind population in the US. Most industries they worked in went to Mexico.

 

[Ogier le Danois]

Yep. This.

Arrived at the site early one morning for a breakfast meeting, a handful of thugs had stopped the president of one of the exhibitors ( B-K Lighting of Madera) and told him he couldn't transport THREE BOXES OF PASTRIES down an escalator to the show floor because "That has to be done by the union."

"Okay, says (the late) Doug Hagen, "then take these down the darn escalator for me."

"Porters don't start until 8 "
( I look at my watch and it's 8:05am...)

"So....You are telling me that I can't do this simple thing, and that YOU have to do it, and you WON'T DO IT ? "

"Yep"

Good-bye Moscone center.

That is certainly an example of Union related problems. It doesn't change the data on a macro scale.

You can correlate the decline in Union membership with the decline in real wages/wage growth.

Like I said before, I am not in a union, and have an adversarial relationship with several unions. They are necessary. But like any large organization, one will find bad apples and bad actions.

I would trust a union before I would trust a corporate board.

 

[OldMadBrit]

All I will comment is that the union 'porters' and staff of the Moscone center are the reason that my industry's annual convention - Lightfair - stopped going to San Francisco.

It was impossible to get things done efficiently there, we go to San Diego now instead.

"Nice Work, boys. "

LOL its just as likely that they moved to San Diego because it a far more popular convention destination. San Fran sucks for conventions.

 

[OldMadBrit]

Unions - the reason we do have weekends and don't have child labor!

 

[Hawaiirider]

Yeah ! Because if you let a 60-year old businessman carry some doughnuts down an escalator the VERY NEXT thing that will happen is kids mining for coal.