Lowsided on Redwood Road

[Cookie Monster]

Sorry for the double post and late reply on some of these posts... it takes forever to type but I am reading all the posts and appreciate all the feedback!

I suspect that at the pace you were going, the bump would have taken you out regardless.

Weighting the outside peg: I'm not certain that it guarantees less lean angle, but it does give greater traction by driving the tyres a little more into the road, vs weight on the inside offering a greater horizontal force (less grip). And if you have all your weight on the inside peg, the rear might skip when you dig in, which seems to be what you are describing.

Taking off the feelers: well, honestly I'm not sure how wise it is to remove them. Why do you think they are called feelers? You didn't fall off because of the feelers really , you fell off because you were going too fast, and you had a canyon-load of warning about that from the feelers, which you ignored.

Sounds like you know what happened - you hit a bump mid-corner on a (relatively) strange road - so good for you for seeing that.

So what are you going to concentrate on so you can ride smarter, not just faster?

You're right, I won't be taking off the feelers in the future. I understand that they were not the cause of my crash and that had I listened to them earlier, I might not be in the situation I am in now.

In the future, I'd like to take some advanced riding courses to work on body position, as well as just slowing down in general. The main thing that I've learned is that even though I escaped with relatively few injuries, I still have a damaged bike, shredded gear, medical bills, and 6 weeks of sitting around in casts missing a lot of riding and other events, all because I was riding too fast around one corner. In the end, it really isn't worth going fast considering the consequences. I'm young and dumb, though, so I guess I had to learn the hard(ish) way.

I also think Enchanter made a great point that my comfort level far exceeded my skill level. For some reason I was comfortable riding at speeds I might not have had the skill to ride at so in the future I need to work on making those more equal.

You have most of it covered Cookie, I feel like you have a good grasp of what happened and how to prevent it in the future.

I agree that weighting the inside peg contributed to your lowside. If you had weight on the outside peg and gripped the tank with your outside leg it's possible you would have made it over the bumps. This is under the assumption that your rear lost traction.

If your front lost traction I would say that trail braking to the apex would have kept the contact patch better planted over the bumps.

Were you on the gas yet? Or were you coasting leaned over going over bumps?

I don't believe I was on the gas yet, which probably led to an unweighted rear tire, made worse by the bumpy surface as well?

Raga, from your description it sounds like there were a couple of things that might have contributed to the crash. Both the weighting of your feet and it seems like the suspension was not loaded for max grip. You said that you had finished braking and then leaned the bike over, seems that without being on the throttle the rear would be somewhat unweighted and weight bias would mostly on the front wheel with the significantly smaller contact patch. Then your peg feelers hits, then came a bump in the road. Does that sound about right? If it is, then yeah, you probably lost the rear tire. Partly because of the bump and unweighted rear tire, or peg feeler digging in, but mostly because (as you yourself pointed out) you were trying to ride a sport touring bike like a much lighter, longer travel sumo...lesson learned. Relatively cheaply too...heal up man. Jackie was saying you're trying to drive with your left foot? A little heel toe action? You dork! You want a body cast?

Yep, a part of the problem definitely came from me trying to ride the equivalent of a bus like a Miata down Redwood Road.

And yeah I have given up on trying to drive a manual with one foot. Mainly for the safety of others.

I think you have the generality of your incident well covered. The only other thing I would suggest that may have helped, but may be something you'll need to train yourself to do (starting at a slower pace of course) is to really support yourself with your lower body, while keeping your upper body turned into the corner (which will naturally have you supported by your outside leg).

The key here is to be super light with your hands after initiating the lean - that will allow you to lift your butt slightly off the seat as soon as you hit bumps like that, and being light on the bars will allow the tires to track where they need to.

RWR is rough to ride quickly if you're a little stiff on the bike. Not a road to max out your available lean, either, as far too often cars decide your lane is available to them, and you may need to suddenly adjust your line tighter - if you're dragging pegs regularly, that option is removed from your escape options.

I did have my upper body turned into the corner, but I don't think I was gripping the tank as tightly as I should've been. I also do need to work on being lighter on the bars.

One question, though: how does being light on the bars allow me to lift my butt off the seat?

I thought the guy on the FZ crashed trying to keep up with the motard? I explained why I think he crashed - outriding his skill level basically.

Next time, probably stay in your comfort zone, there is nothing to prove my good man

Nope, I was riding the supermoto in the video, but we switched back after and I crashed.

Definitely true about having nothing to prove. I'm just so used to driving quickly in my car on Page Mill and Skyline that any time I see twisty roads I just want to go fast. It's something I need to work on for sure.

 

[NudeMischief]

I actually waited at the intersection of Redwood and Pinehurst after you two left so I could have some space to myself as I knew you two would be going much faster than me and that there was no point in me trying to keep up. I saw him riding really slowly about halfway down the road so I passed him and just kept riding.

I also felt that the suspension was too stiff, especially on that road.



I agree that I did drift farther to the inside/DY of some left hand corners than I would have liked to. I'm so used to hugging the double yellow while driving on twisty roads that I end up doing it while riding, too, which means while my tires are on the right side of the road, the rest of the motorcycle and I are not. I have been trying to work on taking a wider line on left hand turns to not lean into the oncoming lane, but it's harder for me to visualize the line, whereas I can see the DY and end up just placing the bike as close to it as possible, which I realize is not smart at all and is something I will put much more focus on in the future to improve.

I haven't taken anything other than the MSF. I've done a couple HPDE track days in my car and one motorcycle track weekend last month.

Yeah, from the way the KTM guy was talking about his bike I had a feeling he wasn't a faster rider, I am not surprised you passed him, Like I mentioned before on my WR250x you were definitely a lot faster than expected and your lines looked clean enough, especially considering by the last lap you and I were entering almost every turn at or near 60, and ending the turns above 70.. I wonder if (even if I was able to do it) that speed felt like it was too fast for your fj09, I had to adjust how I was riding the fj09 to make way for the foot pegs dragging and bumps bucking you off your seat.

PS. the big gauge cluster on the fj made it easy to know entry and exit speed of both of us.

A contributing factor in the crash DEFINATELY has to do with the switch.

I noticed you carried alot more speed on the WR250x into and through the turns than you did on your fj09, possibly after the switch back to your bike you tried to approach turns at higher speed like you got away with on the wr250x that the FJ wasn't as willing to do, be it tuned suspension being better on the WR or Your Body position on the supermoto being better who knows, but the switch had something to do it. maybe the FJ just isnt a canyon carver bike?
All in all I hope your moto insurance takes good care of you.

 

[Enchanter]

The type of motorcycle isn't the issue here, but overconfidence related to swapping from one to the other may be a factor.

Cookie, what are the advantages of an outside-inside-outside path of travel? Why is it important to choose the specific location of the apex when cornering in any vehicle?

 

[Aware]

Cookie if you want to get some fun cornering practice, try Superbikes Coach's cornering school. He uses the go cart track at Stockton. His coaching doesn't really include good info on street riding as he is more interested in "the ideal line", which often is the wrong line for forward vision and safety on the street. But he definitely gives good instruction and practice on how to control the bike. The go cart track is a hoot. I have some video of it somewhere.

https://www.superbike-coach.com

I'm sure there are scores of other classes that people can recommend.

 

[Cookie Monster]

The type of motorcycle isn't the issue here, but overconfidence related to swapping from one to the other may be a factor.

Cookie, what are the advantages of an outside-inside-outside path of travel? Why is it important to choose the specific location of the apex when cornering in any vehicle?

Right, I'm not trying to blame my motorcycle, but rather just say I was too overconfident and trying to ride it like a completely different kind of motorcycle.

You would want to take the outside-inside-outside path in order to widen the corner as much as possible so you can lean less for a given speed or carry more speed for a given lean angle.

Regarding your second question, I'm not quite sure. I only know you'd want to choose an early/mid/late apex in order to set up properly for the next corner, depending on where the apex puts you upon exit.

Cookie if you want to get some fun cornering practice, try Superbikes Coach's cornering school. He uses the go cart track at Stockton. His coaching doesn't really include good info on street riding as he is more interested in "the ideal line", which often is the wrong line for forward vision and safety on the street. But he definitely gives good instruction and practice on how to control the bike. The go cart track is a hoot. I have some video of it somewhere.

https://www.superbike-coach.com

I'm sure there are scores of other classes that people can recommend.

Thanks! I'll look into it. I think there is also the intermidiate CSMP course, right?

 

[Lunch Box]

Regarding your second question, I'm not quite sure. I only know you'd want to choose an early/mid/late apex in order to set up properly for the next corner, depending on where the apex puts you upon exit.

For street riding, the answer is almost always "late apex." Late apexing results in an increased ability to identify and respond to obstructions or other surprises in/near the road. It is not the fastest way around a corner, but it sure is the safest.

 

[Aware]

For street riding, the answer is almost always "late apex." Late apexing results in an increased ability to identify and respond to obstructions or other surprises in/near the road. It is not the fastest way around a corner, but it sure is the safest.

Bingo. With emphasis on "almost always". It's another way of saying make sure you can see through the corner.

Most of the best roads around here seem to be an endless string of blind bends. That means you have to limit your speed and maximise forward visibility to stay safe. When the roads open up and you can see a series of bends ahead, and read the hazards along the way, then you can "safely" open up and try for maximum pace.

 

[Cookie Monster]

For street riding, the answer is almost always "late apex." Late apexing results in an increased ability to identify and respond to obstructions or other surprises in/near the road. It is not the fastest way around a corner, but it sure is the safest.

I didn't even think of that. That's definitely something I will keep in mind when I can start riding again. I hadn't paid much attention to where I apex corners previously.

 

[Aware]

I didn't even think of that.

Not digging at you, Cookie, but that is terrifying. I got my license in Britain, where the depth of instruction and training that you get before you can ride a full power bike dwarfs anything that I have seen in any US state. I got my license over 30 years ago and the instruction *even then* was much more than riders get here. And California is actually pretty strict on rider requirements. :-(

 

[Cookie Monster]

Not digging at you, Cookie, but that is terrifying. I got my license in Britain, where the depth of instruction and training that you get before you can ride a full power bike dwarfs anything that I have seen in any US state. I got my license over 30 years ago and the instruction *even then* was much more than riders get here. And California is actually pretty strict on rider requirements. :-(

I mean, if I didn't know what was around a corner or didn't feel comfortable approaching a blind turn, I'd just slow down... I feel like that's pretty effective.

Most of the time I'm not trying to ride past my sightlines or I'm riding slow enough to slow down/stop if something is in my way, regardless of how I apex a corner. It's happened numerous times on Mt. Hamilton. I've come around blind corners to find stopped police cars, cyclists, oncoming cars over the DY in my lane passing cyclists, etc. and I've never even had what I'd consider to be a close call and I never knowingly "late apexed" any of those corners.

This crash was not how I usually ride. It was a huge lapse of judgement and was at a much higher speed than I usually ride at. The whole point of this thread was to make sure I don't do it again and to learn from my mistakes (especially because I was blaming things like peg feelers at first).

 

[Enchanter]

Cookie, going fast(er) is much more than increasing throttle position. While I tend to agree with you that multiple things all came together at the same time and caused this crash, there is more information coming out in this thread. I'm very concerned and surprised that you don't plan your exact path of travel for each individual turn.

I cannot imagine riding (or driving) without consciously planning on exactly where I'm going to place my apex for any given corner / turn. I do this for my safety, as well as when I choose to go faster. Taking an outside-inside-outside path of travel without planning on where the apex is just cornering with blind luck.

Was this the first ride where you were frequently / consistently scraping your pegs?

 

[Cookie Monster]

Cookie, going fast(er) is much more than increasing throttle position. While I tend to agree with you that multiple things all came together at the same time and caused this crash, there is more information coming out in this thread. I'm very concerned and surprised that you don't plan your exact path of travel for each individual turn.

I cannot imagine riding (or driving) without consciously planning on exactly where I'm going to place my apex for any given corner / turn. I do this for my safety, as well as when I choose to go faster. Taking an outside-inside-outside path of travel without planning on where the apex is just cornering with blind luck.

Was this the first ride where you were frequently / consistently scraping your pegs?

When I'm riding I pick a point where I'd like to stop braking and turn in (haven't worked on trail braking yet), and before reaching that point I look through the turn to pick an apex and where I'd like to go through the turn, but I've never really thought about if it was an early vs mid vs late apex.

Yes, this was the first time I was consistently scraping pegs. I had only done it once or twice before.

 

[tzrider]

I didn't even think of that. That's definitely something I will keep in mind when I can start riding again. I hadn't paid much attention to where I apex corners previously.

Cookie, do you recall where in that corner your peg first touched down? First third, middle third, last third?

What were you doing with the throttle right before crashing?

Do you know which end slid?

 

[Aware]

Again, not digging at you, but the lack of require9d training. This is what i was referring to: what you said yoi didn't even think of. It should be part of basic training.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunch Box
For street riding, the answer is almost always "late apex." Late apexing results in an increased ability to identify and respond to obstructions or other surprises in/near the road. It is not the fastest way around a corner, but it sure is the safest.

 

[BeksNY]

I'm reading this thread with a lot of interest as I self-assess my riding. Cookie, I'm glad you had the courage to post it up and to accept feedback from others. Thank you for that.

Andy, Tim, et al. are there off-the-bike exercises that can be used to practice identifying where to place the apex? (e.g., textbook worksheets, pictures, interactive websites, etc.) I took MSF in NY ages ago and we did virtually no exercises to help identify the ideal apex. I recognize the extraordinary value of hands-on training and have more range work and towed rides scheduled for the coming weekends, but am looking for homework to help visualize cornering.

 

[nedro]

I think I've read everything in this thread (Maybe not).
What were the road conditions. A small patch of dirt/gravel just before or after the bumps you speak of could've easily been the culprit.

I don't really believe it could be the bumps alone. And unless hard parts are dragging (read solid pegs or cases), I wouldn't think it was speed either.

Not proud but;
I passed a car going down hill on 9 between one set of tight esses to the next where there is a passing lane for the uphill commute at the second set. Full throttle pass, throw it over to full lean left, then hard front brakes while at full lean across the center divide rumble strips with no movement at all.

I'd take a close look at the part of the road where you lost traction.

 

[Darkness!]

Bekah, Twist of the Wrist II comes to mind right away. You can probably find it online.

 

[BeksNY]

Bekah, Twist of the Wrist II comes to mind right away. YOu can probably find it online.

True! The videos were helpful, as was the book. I should revisit both. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[Enchanter]

I'm a big fan of Proficient Motorcycling.

 

[madsen203]

Read most of the posts here but forgive me if reposting...


I would say it would be crucial to hang off the bike more when in the corners. Hitting the feelers would indicate the bike is leaned at max angle. Hanging off would allow the bike to center more (lean less) and will still turn quickly.

It looked in the first video posted of you riding that you look stiff on the bike and not allowing to shift yourself on the seat and throw your body into the turn then the bike. I was experimenting with this technique this weekend and found it allowed me to corner more confidently, faster, and use much less lean giving a greater margin of error.

Hang the butt off the seat and stand on the tip of your toes pointing them into the corner. This allows the bike to float under you. Squatting like this you can focus your weight on the outside leg and control the steering with the inside arm.