Lowsided on Redwood Road

[Aware]

Let's remember that this was a crash on the street. Do you suggest that what you outline above is always appropriate for the street?
o.

I thought "Cookie was going too quick " was taken as read by now. I think we all agree he was oitriding his skill and experience.

Everything i describe here is about street riding. I'm a street rider. Ive survived 30 years and close to half a million miles on the street. Yes i think what i described is absolutely relevant to street riding. Far more relevant than talk about how best to get your knee down or wheelie.

 

[Enchanter]

I think your second paragraph is exactly right. I just wanted to go faster without knowing how to do that correctly.

The apex from my understanding is generally the tightest point of the corner, and can be on different parts of a curve, depending on if it is an increasing, constant or decreasing radius turn.

What I'm trying to say is that you should be selecting your apex. The apex is not dictated by the corner and is not set in stone. It is not given to you or forced upon you. You should be planning and deciding on where you want to place it. The geometric apex for the turn may not the best one for the road conditions, visibility, or even for the fastest line (questionable on the street).

Selecting an apex is only a portion of the plan to ride more safely. Yes, you need to have a plan that goes beyond 'brake later / harder - twist the throttle sooner / more'. The first step to all of this is come up with a plan. Don't just ride. You mentioned a portion of a plan earlier when you said that you let the riders ahead of you get out of your sight so that you wouldn't focus on keeping up. That was a great portion of a plan. Now we need to fill in the gaps: Where am I going to look? Where am I going to apex? Remember to maintain a fun pace but not too fast. What skill am I going to focus on on this ride? Etc.

 

[Enchanter]

I thought "Cookie was going too quick " was taken as read by now. I think we all agree he was oitriding his skill and experience.

Everything i describe here is about street riding. I'm a street rider. Ive survived 30 years and close to half a million miles on the street. Yes i think what i described is absolutely relevant to street riding. Far more relevant than talk about how best to get your knee down or wheelie.

On the street, I'm a big proponent of rolling on the throttle immediately after turn-in. This almost always means prior to the 'apex'. I see the value of having the skill of trail-braking, but I do not accept the idea that many people share of 'always trail-brake in every corner'. I'm not saying that you are suggesting this. I'm just uncomfortable telling new(er) riders that they should "never coast". It's too all encompassing.

General comment regarding Crash Analysis (not directed to you):
Most people appear to start the analysis by reverse engineering the crash. They look for an error in control input (handlebars, braking, throttle) first. It is my opinion that we should begin by looking for what got the rider into that situation in the first place (see signature). Most crashes are due to an error in judgement. It tends to be the most challenging aspect of crash analysis, and can be very difficult or impossible to teach, but it is the one with the greatest results.

 

[Aware]

What I'm trying to say is that you should be selecting your apex. The apex is not dictated by the corner and is not set in stone. It is not given to you or forced upon you. You should be planning and deciding on where you want to place it. The geometric apex for the turn may not the best one for the road conditions, visibility, or even for the fastest line (questionable on the street).

That's the same point I've been agreein9with since Cookie said he never thought about his apex ... early, late or 'ideal'.

I think Cookie has some basics down, even if he doesn't know he does. But he needs better guidance and experience to be more successful .

 

[tzrider]

That's the same point I've been agreein9with since Cookie said he never thought about his apex ... early, late or 'ideal'.

Let's see if we can help him understand how different line choices will affect the bike in a turn.

Cookie, the notion of an apex comes into play when you are plotting a path of travel through a turn in which the line takes a wide entry, comes close to the inside edge of the lane somewhere in the middle of the turn and exits wide in the lane. Wherever you are closest to the inside edge of the turn is what we'd call your apex. Sometimes, your line might just follow the lane itself, in which case, you aren't really "apexing."

In either case, you want a line that allows good throttle control through the turn. There are other characteristics of a good line, but to focus on throttle control, a line that is constant or increasing radius as you progress through the turn will allow you to roll on slowly and smoothly through the corner. A line that gets tighter as you progress through the turn interferes with your ability to roll on the gas.

Given that, if you apex early in the turn, what would this do to your line later in the turn? If you apex later, say beyond the geometric midpoint, what would happen to this line's radius late in the turn? These choices directly impact your ability to use the throttle the way you want to.

Certain corners throw up exceptions. Mines Road famously has loose chip seal here and there and in some turns you're better off slowing down a little and following a clean tire track. A wide turn entry is usually a good way to improve your sight lines, but in some blind and narrow turns, a wide entry exposes you to more risk than the improved sightlines justify. In a small number of cases, you may be better off staying tighter to the inside edge of your lane to leave space and just slow down accordingly.

The above isn't crash analysis of course; it's an attempt to help you think through some of the information you're getting about apexes and where you choose to put them.

 

[danate]

So much good analysis so far that I don't want to detract from, but I'd like to add my 2 cents about the apex in regard to street riding, since I hear people talk about it a lot.

I actually think it can be detrimental to focus too much on where the apex is, especially in street riding. My focus for setting up a turn involves scanning ahead, choosing the best turn-in point (ideally where the curve actually begins, though this can vary due to conditions), then finding the exit of the turn and managing my path using my peripheral vision. If conditions are optimal, then I can choose the straightest arc through the curve while keeping my aim towards the exit. I find my apex simply by noticing it in my periphery as I pass by the closest point to the inside of the curve that I allow my path to take. Your apex will vary based upon what turn in point you choose as well as any adjustments to make in the turn. It's best not to worry about where the apex is when in the turn, but to focus on where your exit is and watch for hazards (such as bumps or ripples in the pavement...). This way you are simply connecting two dots (your entry and exit) in the safest way possible.

Cookie, you need to get some formal education on riding. Read some books, watch some videos, and ideally take a class.

 

[David919]

CM, I'm sorry for your mishap and hope you heal quickly. I am newly returned to bike owner and rider after long absence. I have been practicing, watching videos, reading, etc. but it is so great to get actual experience and application of techniques from real, local people on roads I am now riding on. My - exposure to resources, skill level, safety margin, confidence and enjoyment have all improved. Thanks for sharing your passion people!
This thread struck a nerve with a couple things I have needed/wanted to improve on.

 

[T100]

So much good analysis so far that I don't want to detract from, but I'd like to add my 2 cents about the apex in regard to street riding, since I hear people talk about it a lot.

I actually think it can be detrimental to focus too much on where the apex is, especially in street riding. My focus for setting up a turn involves scanning ahead, choosing the best turn-in point (ideally where the curve actually begins, though this can vary due to conditions), then finding the exit of the turn and managing my path using my peripheral vision. If conditions are optimal, then I can choose the straightest arc through the curve while keeping my aim towards the exit. I find my apex simply by noticing it in my periphery as I pass by the closest point to the inside of the curve that I allow my path to take. Your apex will vary based upon what turn in point you choose as well as any adjustments to make in the turn. It's best not to worry about where the apex is when in the turn, but to focus on where your exit is and watch for hazards (such as bumps or ripples in the pavement...). This way you are simply connecting two dots (your entry and exit) in the safest way possible.

Cookie, you need to get some formal education on riding. Read some books, watch some videos, and ideally take a class.

Thanks for posting this. This is exactly how I ride. I'm glad that I'm not alone.

A lot like downhill skiing.

 

[Ahab]

General comment regarding Crash Analysis (not directed to you):
Most people appear to start the analysis by reverse engineering the crash. They look for an error in control input (handlebars, braking, throttle) first. It is my opinion that we should begin by looking for what got the rider into that situation in the first place (see signature). Most crashes are due to an error in judgement. It tends to be the most challenging aspect of crash analysis, and can be very difficult or impossible to teach, but it is the one with the greatest results.

Also, what state of mind was I in? Did my ego get the upper hand? Did I get carried away by trying to be too much of a badass?

 

[sportsluvr]

... Sometimes, your line might just follow the lane itself, in which case, you aren't really "apexing."

In either case, you want a line that allows good throttle control through the turn. There are other characteristics of a good line, but to focus on throttle control, a line that is constant or increasing radius as you progress through the turn will allow you to roll on slowly and smoothly through the corner. A line that gets tighter as you progress through the turn interferes with your ability to roll on the gas.
...

Do old hands always pick a line through a corner deliberately even when it is not familiar? The reason I ask is, I (a beginner) do not, since safety for me is always a top priority.

 

[Aware]

Pretty much. I'm always making choices based on road surface, visibility (making me visible to other traffic), visibility (forward vision), traffic conditions, perceived risk, weather,gut feel etc. Etc.

Sometimes I do simply 'follow the road' but that is rare. Even if I'm just ambling along, I still pay attention to all the other things i mentioned, even if I'm not selecting lines and looking for apexes.

On the rare occasion that I switch off, I typically both slow down and start making silly mistakes, so I try to stay alert.

 

[sportsluvr]

Well, I feel comfortable picking a line only on roads such as 25 where visibility through most corners is excellent. I have been burnt by focusing on a line on Page Mill road or Mt. Hamilton, so I sometimes feel nervous about trying to do things by the book.

 

[Aware]

Are you talking about picking a "racing line"? If yes, look again at what I wrote. Racers laugh at my lines because they are never going to be the fastest lines. If you can't see through a series of bends to plan accordingly, the racing line is a bad choice.

 

[tzrider]

In my mind, the "line" is the rider's intended path of travel through the corner. I would hope we each have one.

It doesn't need to be a racing line, but it should give the rider a plan, ideally it should follow an arc that allows good throttle control and it should avoid hazards. Looking into the corner to account for those things and selecting a "line" that satisfies those basics makes the outcome a more sure thing.

 

[Aware]

Right