Lowsided on Redwood Road

[Darkness!]

True! The videos were helpful, as was the book. I should revisit both. Thanks for the reminder.

Here ya go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVWcag00ktc

Rag, this might help with the question about how to set up each turn, from turn to turn and connecting them all in a nice smooth flow...anyone can twist the throttle in the straights yo... (kidding Rag, not sayin that's you)

 

[Aware]

Andy, Tim, et al. are there off-the-bike exercises that can be used to practice identifying where to place the apex? (e.g., textbook worksheets, pictures, interactive websites, etc.) I took MSF in NY ages ago and we did virtually no exercises to help identify the ideal apex. I recognize the extraordinary value of hands-on training and have more range work and towed rides scheduled for the coming weekends, but am looking for homework to help visualize cornering.

I recommend this book to any Motorcyclist. It discusses not just cornering, but road positioning, forward observation and a whole lot more.

You have to translate a little because it is a British book (left is probably right, centre reservation is median and a bunch of other stuff) but it gives you the core of what a UK Police Motorcyclist learns as core riding skills. Diagrams help with translation ;-)


https://www.amazon.com/Motorcycle-Roadcraft-Police-Riders-Handbook/dp/0117081884/ref=pd_sim_14_1

 

[Pluot]

I'm a big fan of Proficient Motorcycling.

I actually have that book in my backpack right now, among several others to bring over to Cookie.

 

[MysterYvil]

Cookie Monster, how long have you been riding?

I ask because about three years into street riding I had a similar experience (but nothing broken, except my ego). Rode a friend's moto, swapped back to mine, then promptly lowsided, much to my embarassment.

In my case, it was overconfidence and a bit of showing how low I could go, with a dash of wet leaves.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Cookie, do you recall where in that corner your peg first touched down? First third, middle third, last third?

What were you doing with the throttle right before crashing?

Do you know which end slid?

I am pretty sure the peg was grinding by the first third of the corner. I don't think I made it to the last third of the corner on two wheels.

I was off the throttle, about to roll back onto it when I crashed. The handlebars didn't suddenly go limp so I don't think it was the front that slid out.

Cookie Monster, how long have you been riding?

I ask because about three years into street riding I had a similar experience (but nothing broken, except my ego). Rode a friend's moto, swapped back to mine, then promptly lowsided, much to my embarassment.

In my case, it was overconfidence and a bit of showing how low I could go, with a dash of wet leaves.

I've been riding just over a year and about 26k miles.

 

[tzrider]

I am pretty sure the peg was grinding by the first third of the corner. I don't think I made it to the last third of the corner on two wheels.

I was off the throttle, about to roll back onto it when I crashed. The handlebars didn't suddenly go limp so I don't think it was the front that slid out.

The reason I'd asked those questions is that in some of the earlier videos, it looked like you were occasionally increasing lean angle late in some corners. If you're also rolling on the gas at the same time, a more sudden traction loss can result.

It doesn't sound like that was the scenario this time, as your peg feeler touched down early. Had it been in the last third of the turn, it would be evidence that your lean angle had increased in that location.

Even so, this is something to be wary of; prior to using bikes with traction control, the Superbike School's stats showed that about 45% of crashes we saw were due to adding lean angle while rolling on the gas. One of the benefits of the late apex lines people have been advocating is that the line tends to open up later in the turn, which is what you want as you pick up the throttle more for the drive out.

All I remember was turning in, hearing the pegs grind, hitting a bump, and then sliding alongside the bike.

Often when the rear slides first, the bike will feel like it spins away from you tail first. Can you remember if it did this or did it just fall over and remain oriented in the same direction?

 

[Cookie Monster]

It's hard to say for sure but it did feel like the tail spun away from me first. It all happened so fast I'm not sure what exactly happened.

 

[tzrider]

It's hard to say for sure but it did feel like the tail spun away from me first. It all happened so fast I'm not sure what exactly happened.

OK. We don't need to make things up to fill in gaps.

The only other thing I can offer at the moment is being off the gas when you hit the bumps may have contributed. Off the gas, both ends of the suspension will be more compressed than if you were rolling on.

This stands to reason on the front end since weight transfers to the rear on the gas. The rear also rises a bit under light acceleration, with the swingarm trying to twist backward over the wheel in an equal and opposite reaction to the tire torque on the ground. The force is enough to raise the read, even taking rear weight transfer into account.

Off the gas, your suspension would be closer to sagged out (in the bottom third of travel), where on the gas it should be somewhere in the middle third of travel and therefore better able to track bumps. I minimize my exposure to this by typically turning in quickly, which allows me to crack the throttle on sooner and reduces the time I'm leaned over and off the gas. A quicker turn-in also results in a slightly straighter line, which reduces necessary lean angle a bit.

 

[Aware]

OK. We don't need to make things up to fill in gaps.

The only other thing I can offer at the moment is being off the gas when you hit the bumps may have contributed.

Throttle should be neutral or slightly positive, never closed at max lean. This keeps some weight off the front and either keeps everything steady (neutral throttle), or weights/compresses the rear (positive throttle) digging in for traction and taking the load off the front, reducing the chance of a low side.

 

[MysterYvil]

I've been riding just over a year and about 26k miles.

I have known too many riders who have gone down just about when they get a year or two in the saddle. I did...

I think overconfidence plays a part. (Not picking on you CM, just sharing what I've seen. )

 

[Maddevill]

2 things. First, on a supermoto you can often ride stupid fast really easily. On my old XL600SM I could beat my friend on his Gixxer 1100 without really trying, especially on a bumpy road. And he was a much better rider than me. Second, if it's the corner I'm thinking of there is a really big kind of wavy sinkhole type bump there. Definitely could have had something to do with your crash.

 

[tzrider]

Cookie,

Now that some of the points about how throttle affects traction, stability and ground clearance have come up, here's a question to perhaps help with your future back road strategy: Did you see the bumps before you hit them?

If you did, this could have been a cue to get the gas cracked open, had you known the difference it could make. Having positive throttle solves many more problems than it creates. There is a lot of wisdom in the old saying, "When in doubt, gas it." Now you may know a little more about how that applies to this situation.

 

[Cookie Monster]

I have known too many riders who have gone down just about when they get a year or two in the saddle. I did...

I think overconfidence plays a part. (Not picking on you CM, just sharing what I've seen. )

No worries, I definitely know I was being overconfident while riding that day.

2 things. First, on a supermoto you can often ride stupid fast really easily. On my old XL600SM I could beat my friend on his Gixxer 1100 without really trying, especially on a bumpy road. And he was a much better rider than me. Second, if it's the corner I'm thinking of there is a really big kind of wavy sinkhole type bump there. Definitely could have had something to do with your crash.

Yep, as I said before, I heard cars constantly chirping their tires on the road going around the turn at far slower speeds. There is definitely some sort of weird bump there. As soon as I can ride again I'd like to go back and check that corner out.

Cookie,

Now that some of the points about how throttle affects traction, stability and ground clearance have come up, here's a question to perhaps help with your future back road strategy: Did you see the bumps before you hit them?

If you did, this could have been a cue to get the gas cracked open, had you known the difference it could make. Having positive throttle solves many more problems than it creates. There is a lot of wisdom in the old saying, "When in doubt, gas it." Now you may know a little more about how that applies to this situation.

I did not see the bumps (or at least did not register them) when I went into the corner. I was riding too fast for my knowledge of the road.

For your second point, should I be on the throttle even before the apex? Since I don't know how to trail brake, should I get back on the gas as soon as I turn in?

In my car I'm more comfortable trail braking, so I'd be on the brakes till the apex, then get back on the gas on the way out, so there is very little coasting. Getting back on the gas before the apex seems very foreign to me, especially going downhill. I know it's something Doc Wong has gone over and that I've tried to do but in my mind it seems weird.

 

[Cincinnatus]

How about saving that shit for the track? The last thing I'd want to see is an out-of-control motorcycle heading for me.

 

[Enchanter]

How about saving that shit for the track? The last thing I'd want to see is an out-of-control motorcycle heading for me.

Peter, exactly what suggested techniques are you referring to that are, in your opinion, track only? Also, what post is suggesting / encouraging an increase in speed?

Cookie has already admitted to riding above / faster than his skill set.

 

[Aware]

For your second point, should I be on the throttle even before the apex? Since I don't know how to trail brake, should I get back on the gas as soon as I turn in?

In my car I'm more comfortable trail braking, so I'd be on the brakes till the apex, then get back on the gas on the way out, so there is very little coasting.

Yoi shouldn't ever be coasting. Is your Miata auto? When you only have 2 pedals, all you learn is stop and go...


Neutral throttle is not coasting on the approach to or through the apex. That would be closed throttle. Neutral means throttle open enough to have no engine breaking and no drive.

You can hit the gas at the apex, or a little before, though you may be only on 5% throttle or so to start, then gradually open up.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Yoi shouldn't ever be coasting. Is your Miata auto? When you only have 2 pedals, all you learn is stop and go...


Neutral throttle is not coasting on the approach to or through the apex. That would be closed throttle. Neutral means throttle open enough to have no engine breaking and no drive.

You can hit the gas at the apex, or a little before, though you may be only on 5% throttle or so to start, then gradually open up.

Oh god no I would never own an automatic Miata, though I'm not quite sure what the transmission choice has to do with turning and being on the throttle?

I see what you mean about neutral vs closed throttle. To be honest, the FJ's throttle always seemed so jerky it felt like I'd upset the bike more getting on the throttle at all. I'm not trying to blame the throttle or bike in any way, although I did note that the supermoto was so much more forgiving to get back on the gas on without being jerky (probably partly due to being 90 hp down on the FJ too...).

 

[Enchanter]

Yoi shouldn't ever be coasting. Is your Miata auto? When you only have 2 pedals, all you learn is stop and go...


Neutral throttle is not coasting on the approach to or through the apex. That would be closed throttle. Neutral means throttle open enough to have no engine breaking and no drive.

You can hit the gas at the apex, or a little before, though you may be only on 5% throttle or so to start, then gradually open up.

Let's remember that this was a crash on the street. Do you suggest that what you outline above is always appropriate for the street?

While much of the advice given is correct, we're glazing over the primary cause: He was trying to go fast(er). Secondary cause factors were that he was doing so without truly understanding some of the basic techniques used for safe riding on the street, let alone how they apply to riding fast (street or track).

Cookie, how do you determine where the apex is for any given corner? Do you understand that it isn't a specific geographic location / landmark?

If you are reading this thread and interpreting the suggested skills as a means to go faster, then I think you may be missing the point. The application of many of these techniques should be used to increase your safety margin. If you apply these techniques and increase your speed, the end result is zero.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Let's remember that this was a crash on the street. Do you suggest that what you outline above is always appropriate for the street?

While much of the advice given is correct, we're glazing over the primary cause: He was trying to go fast(er). Secondary cause factors were that he was doing so without truly understanding some of the basic techniques used for safe riding on the street, let alone how they apply to riding fast (street or track).

Cookie, how do you determine where the apex is for any given corner? Do you understand that it isn't a specific geographic location / landmark?

If you are reading this thread and interpreting the suggested skills as a means to go faster, then I think you may be missing the point. The application of many of these techniques should be used to increase your safety margin. If you apply these techniques and increase your speed, the end result is zero.

I'll give Aware a chance to respond to your first question but I'd like to know why that isn't always appropriate.

I think your second paragraph is exactly right. I just wanted to go faster without knowing how to do that correctly.

The apex from my understanding is generally the tightest point of the corner, and can be on different parts of a curve, depending on if it is an increasing, constant or decreasing radius turn.

I am also definitely not planning on going faster in the future. I'd like to have the proper technique while riding slower in order to increase my safety margin, and also try to get rid of any bad habits so I can go faster on track (if any street riding skills apply to the track as well).

 

[Aware]

Oh god no I would never own an automatic Miata, though I'm not quite sure what the transmission choice has to do with turning and being on the throttle?

I see what you mean about neutral vs closed throttle. To be honest, the FJ's throttle always seemed so jerky it felt like I'd upset the bike more getting on the throttle at all. I'm not trying to blame the throttle or bike in any way, although I did note that the supermoto was so much more forgiving to get back on the gas on without being jerky (probably partly due to being 90 hp down on the FJ too...).

The two pedals of an auto are almost universally driven using one foot. So you learn to coast. You learn stop and go. Accelerate or break. No subtlety. No control. Riding a bike is much more complex. Since your Miata is stick, my point has less relevance.

The throttle control I described isn't exactly what most people do because hardly anyone will teach them that. Again , you are allowed on the road with minimal instruction and left to figure it out for yourself.