Questions for Keith Code - Round Two

[silverbelt]

Cornering -- Discover the art

Having done L1 and L2, I'd be willing to bet that if riders just attended L1 and actually listened and learn each lesson and apply the techniques learned on the street then folks would not be running so hot into corners and making exactly the kind of rider inputs that causes alot of these crashes.

There's a reason why even the most experienced rider can't just jump into L3 without first going through L1 and L2. I think thats a good thing.

When I did L1, there were a few riders who thought they were too good to follow the program and I think it was Dylan who said that if you want to go on making the same errors, then you came to the wrong school.

I'll let Keith answer though. Sorry for the threadjack John

 

[feomateo]

How do you make corrections when you're in the turn already? lean angle, throttle, is there anything else?

 

[bellisan]

On #3: "to hold line when running out of traction."

Since the turning radius of a motorcycle is based on the combined center of gravity of the rider and of the motorcycle, wouldn't hanging off further allow the rider to maintain a constant radius turn as he or she gently accelerates through a corner?

If so, this would allow a rider to maintain an ideal 40/60 weight balance using the throttle while keeping the bike on line, without having to make any steering corrections.

The minimum turn radius of a motorcycle is given by the static friction coefficient between the tires and the road surface (the dynamic coefficient is always smaller), and any camber. The resultant forces vector from the combined CG must pass through the line between the contact patches if there are to be no changes in lean angle.

This is for the constant state, so it is not to say that you cannot have an instantaneous turn radius that is less, but the impulse to do that will come due and will result in a longer turn radius at some point.

Cheers

Lou

 

[bellisan]

I definately think that is a hell of a list. The only one that I wouldnt agree with is number 5. Getting on to the center of the tire would create "taller" gearing, which is actually less mechanical advantage. On the exit of a turn, it is all about acceleration, and shorter gears = better drive. I'm no physics major, but I'm pretty sure that the smaller rolling circumferance (sic) of the side of the tire creates shorter gearing.

It is less mechanical advantage, but if you have the throttle pinned and are running into the rev limiter, it is likely that you are not using all the power to overcome air resistance, therefore there is still power available to accelerate, without having to shift yet (which will inevitably drop you into a region of less power). Definitely a short term effect, but when the eventual shift comes it will put you into a region of more power.

Cheers

Lou

P.S. Am a physics major

 

[bellisan]

My lap times dropped back down (by almost 2 seconds), close to the best laps I'd done in the entire race, despite being the last 30 minutes of the 4-Hour race ...... on a tire that looked pretty ugly by the time the checkered flag flew.

Given that the lap times were comparable, what do you think of the idea (not for me, I'm not a racer) of using the technique interleaved, say run 10 min one way, followed by 10 min the other way (or whatever duty cycle is appropriate to balance wear)? If done this way, the tire should be more even, and allow for better options should need arise, such as in passing or being passed, where having the sweet spot totally toasted would take away an option.

Cheers

Lou

 

[bellisan]

I was just wondering what you all think of traction control.

Here's my question:

Does the fact that a Moto GP rider can pin the throttle, at practically any lean angle, reduce the mystique for you of riding a 240 bhp motorcycle that weights 325 lb?

I'm writing an article about it and I've surveyed riders at the school but was curious about how BARFERS felt about it.

Keith

I was of the mind that the manufacturers should be able to do whatever they want, but I'm heading away from that.

The 18 currently on the grid are the best *riders* in the world. If I were interested in the maximal exponent of machinery I would follow F1 (did for a fairly long while). What's next? Integrated GPS controlled braking for every curve? We would miss out on the late braking classes of V. Rossi. Automatic movable weights in the frame to assist in tip in and to hold lean angle in the turn? The TC takes away from what I think is the greatest difference between them and us: the feel for all the variables happening at each particular moment and the control of the inputs required to respond. Let each drive out of a corner be a one-time event, managed by the supreme skill of the *rider*.

Cheers

Lou

P.S. I realize that it would perhaps prevent that particular feature to make it to the street, where it could actually save lives, and I have no good answer for that.

 

[bikerdr]

Which bike would you choose?

Hi Keith!

I'm strongly considering selling my street bike and buying a second track bike. My current track bike is a race tuned 02 GSXR 600.

I'm here because I'd like your thoughts on this topic. I'm still a relatively fresh track rider (with only 5 track days under my belt) so I still have tons to learn. The 600 is fun to ride, it has enough power to get me going but not too much to (easily) kill me, at least not the way I'm riding it now anyway. What I'm interested in is a second bike that will really help me learn how to be a better track rider.

So, using your years of experience and infinite wisdom, if you were still pretty new to the activity and you were thinking about getting a second bike with the main goal of getting better, what would you get?

Rob

 

[Lazerus]

Hi Kieth! Hoping I can resurrect this thread, and thereby the access to your wisdom!

I have been attending trackdays since last year, and by the end of the year was a solid B group rider.

I recently went to Reno Fernley raceway for my first time. Spent the weekend there with zoom zoom. By the morning of the second day I was scraping at A group lap times. By the end of the day, I was definately there.

On the other hand, i have ridden thunderhill 3 times.... probably put in atleast 200 laps there... and hit a plateau. I identified and overcame all of the obstacles I could see at that track, but am still unhappy with my laptimes, nearly 10 seconds off of the "A" group pace. How can I go about taking the pace I was able to attain at a new track, back to a track that seems I have already reached my potential at? Do you have any suggestions on key points that riders overlook when analysing their own riding, thus preventing improvement?

 

[Gary J]

I identified and overcame all of the obstacles I could see at that track, but am still unhappy with my laptimes, nearly 10 seconds off of the "A" group pace. How can I go about taking the pace I was able to attain at a new track, back to a track that seems I have already reached my potential at? Do you have any suggestions on key points that riders overlook when analysing their own riding, thus preventing improvement?

I'm not Keith, but in seeing that it's been almost 2 months since he's had a chance from his busy schedule to post up and respond in this thread, I figured I'd share a few thoughts for you Rory..... for the moment .... and hope it might be of help.

Never been a big proponent of casual trackday (non-racer) riders putting over-emphasis on quantitative lap times, in letting them serve as a strong force to draw them to push harder to find ways to "go faster". Granted if a rider improves their actual prowess as a rider, and in navigating a particular track, the numbers (lap times) will drop. But better to have it happen as a result of "being a better rider", rather then as a primary objective in ..... and of itself.

As for the track on which you were referring to the plateau that you've reached (T-Hill), with 12 years of riding/racing on that circuit since it first opened in 1995, I think I can give you at least a few ideas to take away that are best-bets in seeing improvements on the clock ... for what it's worth.

T-Hill is a track that has a number of "fast segments". Fast in this reference being related to potential MPH numbers on the speedo while navigating. On any track where there are "fast segments" (turns and/or straights with near/or into triple-digits); the places on the circuit where the biggest differences in what a "fast" rider is doing, and what a "not as fast" (say 10 sec/lap difference, as in your instance) rider is doing, will be these areas.

The difference in what's being achieved in the lower MPH turns and sections between the same two riders, will be far less substantial.

So what's this all mean, with regards to your inquiry? It means that IF you're going to do a discection of your riding to weed out the places on T-Hill where you should focus on improving the efficiency in your riding ...... to chip away large amounts of those extra 10 sec/lap, simply identify those areas where the average "MPH" over the largest contiguous section is the highest.

In other words for T-Hill, these target zones for seeing quantitative lap time improvement, at this level of riding skill/experience (B to A group transition), are as follows (in order as working around a lap from start-to-finish):

• - Turn 1 (minimizing lost speed from preceding straight)
  - Turn 2 (long time in corner, lots of time to gain/lose)
  - Turn 6, 7, 8 contiguous combination (sheer speed average)
  - Turn 11/12/13 inter-linking segment ("drive" onto back straight)
  - Turn 15 exit ("drive" onto front straight)

All these sections are either sections where the MPH is high, or sections that lead into or follow sections where the MPH is high.

Learning the secrets for maximizing your efficiency in those areas above; collectively, can easily net a 5-6 second/lap improvement, over a single day of focused instruction.

The key techniques for maximizing riding efficiency in each of those areas is something I could help with, but due to taking more space then a single thread can handle I'll leave that for another time/place for now. Look me up at the track (T-Hill) at some point in the near future, if you wish, and I'd be glad to offer some help on this.

Pushing to the point of white-knuckling it in most of the other turns on T-Hill (those not listed above), in the quest to drop your lap times, will likely see not much more then a second or two at best .... with a high increase in the risks of having an "off" by trying to do so.

Learn to "go faster" (ride more efficiently) in the "fast" sections of the track, and you'll see good improvements on the clock, with a tradionally lower level of added risk.

Some food for thought for your Rory, and anyone else that has a similar interest, FWIW

Gary J

 

[Lazerus]

thanks for chiming in gary!

 

[darkie]

Hi guys, this is Dylan. To fill you in Keith is out on the road with the school. Pocono, Virginia, and Barber coming up in a few days followed by Willow Springs. Then we start shooting A Twist of the Wrist II video.

So yes he has been busy but I'll remind him to check in...we finally got to a hotel with decent wireless!

 

[Lazerus]

Dylan, a little off topic, but did you star in the first "twist" video when you were young? I get the suspicion that you were the kid having break throughs by drawing out his lines while in the pits....

 

[darkie]

Yeah, the pesky kid was me.

 

[Keith Code]

what bike

Hi Keith!

I'm strongly considering selling my street bike and buying a second track bike. My current track bike is a race tuned 02 GSXR 600.

I'm here because I'd like your thoughts on this topic. I'm still a relatively fresh track rider (with only 5 track days under my belt) so I still have tons to learn. The 600 is fun to ride, it has enough power to get me going but not too much to (easily) kill me, at least not the way I'm riding it now anyway. What I'm interested in is a second bike that will really help me learn how to be a better track rider.

So, using your years of experience and infinite wisdom, if you were still pretty new to the activity and you were thinking about getting a second bike with the main goal of getting better, what would you get?

Rob

Rob,

It's easier to get info on a bike that has been raced successfully in the past but isn't currently competitive. The riders who made them work are generally easier with the info on an older bike and you can get lots of set up data on forums. As far as what bike goes, just about any 600 made n the past 6 or 7 years is going to work for you and be fast enough.

Keith

 

[Keith Code]

barriers and plateaus

Hi Kieth! Hoping I can resurrect this thread, and thereby the access to your wisdom!

I have been attending trackdays since last year, and by the end of the year was a solid B group rider.

I recently went to Reno Fernley raceway for my first time. Spent the weekend there with zoom zoom. By the morning of the second day I was scraping at A group lap times. By the end of the day, I was definately there.

On the other hand, i have ridden thunderhill 3 times.... probably put in atleast
200 laps there... and hit a plateau. I identified and overcame all of the obstacles I could see at that track, but am still unhappy with my laptimes, nearly 10 seconds off of the "A" group pace. How can I go about taking the pace I was able to attain at a new track, back to a track that seems I have already reached my potential at? Do you have any suggestions on key points that riders overlook when analysing their own riding, thus preventing improvement?

Lazerus

Self coaching is one of the toughest things to do and if there was a simple answer to your question, there would be thousands of fast guys out there.

Work it out on paper first.

1. Draw the turns of each track.
2. Compare the two tracks and decide which turns are similar and which ones are different.
3. Liist the corners or sections you feel good about. These would be the ones that seem to flow well, where you are making fewer throttle and steering corrections, the ones you are committing to and find it easier getting on the gas.
4. List the corners you are tentative in and feel less committed.
5. Go back to your drawing and pencil in any reference points you have in each turn. If you can't remember what you see in some of the corners you should attack those first, they will be the ones you are losing the most time in, find some reference points in them.
6. Quit worrying about your lap times. Next time you go to T'Hill don't even take any times until the afternoon.

OK, that is a very general supervision but has worked many times in the past.

Without seeing your riding that is the best I can do. Otherwise I'd have to do something like give you a bunch of advice and opinions on how to ride the turns and that is a waste of your's and my time.

Keith

 

[Lazerus]

You know, that is one thing that I hadn't considered. Before going to fernley I printed out a few copies of the track map, drew out my imaginary lines before having ridden the track, then edited them as the weekend went on.

Now I have somewhere else to apply that! Thanks!

Although I have reference points for each turn at thill, I know that I am tenative through 3 (off camber), the off camber portion of 5, and 14(tar snakes in braking zone, tight turn w/ blind exit).

Even more homework. Thanks for your time yet again!

 

[Keith Code]

Disclaimer

I definitely agree with the tire saving/tire utilization concept that's being discussed here Keith .... based on some personal experience with just such a technique.

Having done a lot of endurance roadrace events over the years, forced me to learn how to find additional laps at speed, on a tire that'd begun to sign-off from lack of rubber in the "sweet spot".

What's the "sweet spot"?

That's the narrow range of contact patch ,about 1" in from the edge of the tread surface, where the tire is contacting the pavement at the typical "get on the gas hard pont" ..... on the exit of turns.

The slipping/sliding, and laying down of rubber, that this portion of the tire is subjected to (in a racing environment) makes that area the equivalent of the center portion of a long-range commuter rider's tire. Basically a "flat spot" develops, along with the absence of rubber (and grip) compared to the surrounding tire surface areas.

To put in additional fast laps late into an endurance race, without high-sideing to the moon, I found that it necessary to change one aspect of my riding technique. What was that? The decision of "when" (what point during the process of bringing the bike back from being leaned over, in the later portion of a turn) to begin the serious throttle roll-on for acceleration.

Basically the change consisted of doing just the opposite of what was being discussed before, where the rider was pushing the bike away from them, in an act of "standing the bike up".

In this case the area of the tire where that traditional "standing the bike up" technique had been used in the first 3 hours of the race, had become (as a result) the dead-zone (flattened/little rubber left). So the change of technique was to deliberately keep the bike leaned over longer, while finishing off the hard acceleration turns, so that the more virgin rubber closer to the edge of the tire would be in contact with the pavement during the tire slipping/sliding/spinning of hard acceleration off those turns.

This technique of consciously putting the tire on the "good spot", via a rather atypical timing of throttle and lean angle position, has always worked well in endurance racing. It consistently allowed running at least 1-2 seconds/lap faster then was possible when having to ease the gas on in almost a rain-riding mode style, if using the heavily worn area of the rear tire via a standard riding technique.

Just another version (though in the opposite direction) of the theme of a rider consciously working the bike to use a different lean angle during acceleration, to maximize the available grip.

Gary J

Riders and Gary,

This is a disclaimer: I'll try to be diplomatic.

This is possibly the worst advice I've ever heard on riding aside from "don't use the front brake".

Keith

 

[Lovedoc]

Thanks for posting on BARF, Keith. I'm still trying to utilize what I learned at the Las Vegas camp.

My last rear tire was not worn smoothly. The edge was pretty flat, then a pronounced high band, then a trough, then the center strip. I felt the bike tipping abruptly when transiting the bands on lean in. I think on the stand-up drill I probably am driving on the trough. What should I do to even out the wear?

 

[Keith Code]

tire wear

Thanks for posting on BARF, Keith. I'm still trying to utilize what I learned at the Las Vegas camp.

My last rear tire was not worn smoothly. The edge was pretty flat, then a pronounced high band, then a trough, then the center strip. I felt the bike tipping abruptly when transiting the bands on lean in. I think on the stand-up drill I probably am driving on the trough. What should I do to even out the wear?

Lovedoc,

Another one of the reasons that tires flat side is the line. When riders have a line that sticks them at that angle of lean at the turn's exit for too long, the same thing happens.

It can be a combination of being lazy bringing the bike up and line. I know that our CSS coaches can put over a thousand track miles and hundreds of heat cycles on their tires and still maintain a good profile.

Those are the two most likely areas to look into for changing it.

Keith

 

[Gary J]

Riders and Gary,

This is a disclaimer: I'll try to be diplomatic.

This is possibly the worst advice I've ever heard on riding aside from "don't use the front brake".

Diplomatic?

Was there an actual purpose in pulling up that very old posting; a posting unrelated to the most current riding technique questions and topics being actively discussed for the last couple of months, and re-posting it now? (with the comment)

Or was this a stone-toss reaction to my trying to offer some help to Lazerus' recent T-Hill track riding question? Only enough room for one "expert" in the BARF playground?

As that we'd already had an off-line communication some time back, where we discussed (and I thought had clarified the "special case" endurance racing nature of) that posting, it's odd to see you referring to the posting as being worst advice, here and now?

I'll clarify again; that old posting was not advice. It was presented as a historical recounting of some real world personal experience on tire wear, and riding adjustments done to overcome challenges, during endurance roadracing events. Not in reference to street riding, normal trackday riding, nor even normal sprint roadracing .... and most certainly not as "how to" advice.

An atypical tangent on the tire wear discussion that was active at the time it was originally posted (several months ago). A topic which has been cold here in this thread for months.

Been cases over the years where I've been inclined to comment on a differing of opinion on specific details of advice from certain experts in the field of motorcycle training and instruction, but have remained diplomatic, by keeping such opinions and feedback private. Professional courtesy, I guess you could call it. Just some food-for-thought, FWIW.

Happy riding, on and off the track ........