Sears Point Turn One

[JeffKoch]

Maybe it's time to ban liter bikes if they're too fast for the conditions???

Yeah, we could force them to go down to 800 cc.

 

[afm199]

Maybe it's time to ban liter bikes if they're too fast for the conditions???

YES! That will eliminate F40 as a class in the process. Got my vote.

 

[ZXR400SP]

It's actually kinda fun to ride, hopping the curb on the exit and all. The crowding will suck with AFM's numbers, but frankly, it is a safer layout. Much like Wolliwnottub, we'll never know unless we do it.

And to ditto Berto... have you naysayers ever crashed in T1? Or ridden either/both layouts at fast race speeds?

We (AFM) raced the AMA T1 a couple years ago, luckily I haven't crashed in either version. That being said I ran through the dirt every lap of my races and plastered the competitiion behind me. Most behind would roll off so as to not get pelted or run into the crash they were expecting in the dirt. I've race a 400 so my persepective on speed is skewed, I'm full throttle till T2.

 

[joe]

I thought T1 was much safer now than it was a few years ago? I know it's still not the safest turn at the track, but what gives? Maybe I'm in the dark here, but after the recent construction is there really a good chance of sliding all the way out there and hitting something hard? Would a gravel trap help? Or do I just have no clue how close that stuff is out there since I'm always looking up towards 2?

And, is there any discussion with the track to fill in that dirt section outside the chicane in 1?

I love the T1 we run, love it to death, but I can't say that it bothers me too much to run a chicane there. Either way we still get to race at Sears and either way that turn can still be a passing point (although it's definitely going to be MUCH harder to pass there than it used to be...). I just wished they'd push it out a little more with asphalt to provide some room to pass late on the brakes there...

 

[NoQuarter]

Whenever I go throught the fast T1 I always see Dave sliding up the hill with a dangerously cartwheeling bike around him. I do not want that to happen to anybody else. Nobody likes to "nerf" this sport but when our lives are at stake we can make a few " less fun" desicions to alleviate the risk.

Seriously, I got very lucky. The angle I slid off at, up towards T2, left me room slow down with impacting anything. Had the front tucked a half second earlier might trajectory would've had me sliding straight into a tire barrier at 100mph. Whee.

Oh, and the 800cc limit has only increased the speeds. It very well could be that Sears Point is heading towards obsolesence (for real bikes anyhow). Bikes will continually get faster and the only long term solution will be to build tracks better suited to the speeds, like Miller and that proposed new one in the valley. T10 is a prime example, that's a bit safer than it used to be with the old T9, but even still it's a major safety hazard because of the wall. There is no room to push it back without moving the highway. And even all the airfencing can only do so much.

So yeah, we have a responsibility to make the most of the conditions we have. It's my guess that at some point in the relatively near future, say 5-10 years, Sears Point just won't be able to meet the safety needs of modern racing. Sure, crazy people still race at Loudon, but as new tracks open up, these ancient designs will lose favor.

 

[afm199]

I thought T1 was much safer now than it was a few years ago? I know it's still not the safest turn at the track, but what gives? Maybe I'm in the dark here, but after the recent construction is there really a good chance of sliding all the way out there and hitting something hard? Would a gravel trap help? Or do I just have no clue how close that stuff is out there since I'm always looking up towards 2?

And, is there any discussion with the track to fill in that dirt section outside the chicane in 1?

I love the T1 we run, love it to death, but I can't say that it bothers me too much to run a chicane there. Either way we still get to race at Sears and either way that turn can still be a passing point (although it's definitely going to be MUCH harder to pass there than it used to be...). I just wished they'd push it out a little more with asphalt to provide some room to pass late on the brakes there...

There is more asphalt in the dirt now, has been for awhile.

T1 crashes suck. The current AFM configuration does not cut speed much from what it was with the old T11/haybale chicane. If you go off there the chances are you get hurt. Last season I got tboned in T1 and when I stopped sliding I was so happy to be on one piece I was jumping up and down with joy. Even though my bike was a mess. August was sitting on the tire wall waiting for the ambulance.


Look for interesting finishes. I watched Miguel stay on the gas so hard at an AMA finish that there was no way he could make the turn, he just went off track hard on the brakes all the way to the dirt and then dirt tracked it back on track.

 

[duh_ave]

Maybe it's time to ban liter bikes if they're too fast for the conditions???

agreed.
I can see the ama turn 1 as a new challenge, but I do wonder about two things:
1--does the safety committee accurately represent the majority of the club or is it just the super fast guys? I only know of Ken Hill and I think Dave Stanton that are on it.
2-- if your bike is too fast for a section of track, isnt it up to you to slow down?
this can be continued to all the buttonwillow and wolliwnottub arguments.

heck, lets just have sunday grudge matches and only use the drag strip.

 

[afm199]

agreed.
I can see the ama turn 1 as a new challenge, but I do wonder about two things:
1--does the safety committee accurately represent the majority of the club or is it just the super fast guys? I only know of Ken Hill and I think Dave Stanton that are on it.
2-- if your bike is too fast for a section of track, isnt it up to you to slow down?
this can be continued to all the buttonwillow and wolliwnottub arguments.

heck, lets just have sunday grudge matches and only use the drag strip.

The safety committe does not represent anyone, it's job is to make recommendations to improve safety. The board represents the membership. The two rider reps voted against this, IIRC.

However, I don't think anyone who raced the old Sears Point has ANYTHING but good feelings about the safety measures taken since the track was rebuilt. The old track was nicknamed "Serious Point" and if you crashed exiting T7 or 8a there was a nice hill there to run into about ten feet off the track. And high speed T10 is a horrible place to crash.

 

[rick]

IIRC, we ran the AMA T1 a couple years ago after Jeff Frost got the front wheel clipped on his 600 and went into the wall. Sears Point then bulldozed the hill and moved the bridge so we went back to the AFM T1.

Only thing I remember about it is that the fast line involved jumping the curve and riding through the dirt. If you were behind anyone going through there your bike took some pretty heavy impacts from the rocks flying at you.

Again, IIRC, the 450p folks were particularly annoyed with all the busted radiators 'cause they couldn't buy new ones anymore.

Other than that it, just turns another fun passing/racing spot into yet another late braking duel. ...which is wicked fun in moderation but, damn, is this the future of road racing? Straight, chicane, straight, chicane, etcetera?

I hear that the big bike folks get their rocks off on that kind of stuff but, to me it's boring.

 

[duh_ave]

The safety committe does not represent anyone, it's job is to make recommendations to improve safety. The board represents the membership. The two rider reps voted against this, IIRC.

However, I don't think anyone who raced the old Sears Point has ANYTHING but good feelings about the safety measures taken since the track was rebuilt. The old track was nicknamed "Serious Point" and if you crashed exiting T7 or 8a there was a nice hill there to run into about ten feet off the track. And high speed T10 is a horrible place to crash.

understood, however, they're perspective will be skewed to conditions that are not necessarily the "average".

I am all for safety improvments but I just dont see this as being one of them.
For lack of better words, it is inviting "new evils". I say stay with the known ones in this particular case.

 

[afmotorsports]

agreed.
I can see the ama turn 1 as a new challenge, but I do wonder about two things:
1--does the safety committee accurately represent the majority of the club or is it just the super fast guys? I only know of Ken Hill and I think Dave Stanton that are on it.
2-- if your bike is too fast for a section of track, isnt it up to you to slow down?
this can be continued to all the buttonwillow and wolliwnottub arguments.

heck, lets just have sunday grudge matches and only use the drag strip.

So using that logic, let's set up the tracks so that they're relatively safe only at Ninja 250 speeds and everybody with a faster bike can go screw himself?? Sorry, we MUST attempt to make the track safer for the FASTEST bikes, not the slowest or even "average" bikes.

 

[NoQuarter]

understood, however, they're perspective will be skewed to conditions that are not necessarily the "average".

I am all for safety improvments but I just dont see this as being one of them.
For lack of better words, it is inviting "new evils". I say stay with the known ones in this particular case.

By that logic, it would be ok to revert back to the old T9/T10/T11... slower bikes/riders certainly have less to worry about in regards to impacting off track obstacles.

But to answer the initial concern, yes they're are experienced riders from both 250p and 500tw on the committee, which I'd think would constitute the other end of the spectrum from Hill and Stanton.

 

[Holeshot]

Do 250P and 500TW bikes have different crash trajectories than 1000's?

 

[afmotorsports]

I'm just waiting for Greg to bust out his famous "big-bike-centric" cliche... Let's not turn this into a small bike vs. big bike isssue, we all want to make it through the weekend as safe as possible.

In a purely democratic vote, there are more riders on 750cc (or smaller) racebikes who frankly can't comprehend what it's like to pull the trigger on a 180-200+hp superbike coming out of T11 and flying into the old T1. It's really dangerous at those speeds, that's why the AMA runs the AMA T1 and that's why the track also prefers we run the AMA T1. The perception may be that the board is looking out "big bikes", but in reality it could benefit just about anyone riding at Infineon. I think Frosty piled himself up really good on a 600, so don't think it's only a liter-bike issue.

 

[teamtpr]

Bridge math. The turn 9 fatality was a fluke.

Total Fluke, Health related crash just like the crash, in the Exit last year? was it not?

 

[teamtpr]

Do 250P and 500TW bikes have different crash trajectories than 1000's?

Ya they do? the little bikes can only get into the air.
The Big bikes can make it into the stratosphere

 

[ianian28]

is this just a case of history repeating itself?

i ask because i wasn't around.

i hear nearly universal approval from the motorbiking community about the past safety changes to sears - whether it was the last big re-paving, turn 9, etc.

something tells me that when these changes were propsed, there were people making the same complaints and chanting the same ridiculous hyperbole (for example " Let's put a bus stop in the middle of the bus stop! Why not put 45 chicanes in select areas on the track?")

now, these changes are almost totally loved.

tell me - when these old changes were proposed, were the same complaints made?

i know it's frustrating to lay down 2 bills for a track day and not get to ride the course you want, but why not give AMA turn 1 a chance and see how it performs?
based on the horror stories i've heard of T-2 crashes, trading a few low sides for 1 big high-side seems like a solid plan to me.

 

[NoQuarter]

Do 250P and 500TW bikes have different crash trajectories than 1000's?

the trajectory depends upon the angle and velocity of the launch. duh.

<---- trajectory is important to know when doing that

 

[TWF]

1--does the safety committee accurately represent the majority of the club or is it just the super fast guys? I only know of Ken Hill and I think Dave Stanton that are on it.

apparently not,they are some guys on committee that are still pedaling around track.

 

[eeeeek]

Vik, I'd say more fatal accidents at T9 not happening was a fluke. Ask Siggy how safe T10 was...or Grant.

9 and 10 are different corners. 10 was a fatality waiting to happen, 9 was not.