Slow speed practice, no experts please

[Enchanter]

I believe you said you do slow speed practice. It would be interesting to hear about what you practice and what techniques you are trying to improve.

Nope. I'm not going to discuss (your interpretation of) practice until you discuss why you think that you have a clearer understanding of motorcycle control and dynamics than people with more skill, experience, and training. Why have you failed to answer the many questions that I have already asked you?

Talking about that might set a good example for the less experienced riders.

It might. Since you seem to be concerned for the example I am setting, what kind of example are you setting for those that read your posts?

A teacher who practices is more likely to have students who practice.

You are barking up the wrong tree here bubba. After 20 years, I have a pretty good number of practicing students.

 

[beginner]

Dude, don't you understand that there is not a SINGLE person on here that does endless slow speed practice?? People might ride in a parking lot for a couple hours in total before hitting their local fire roads, or trails to get further practice. You're beating a dead horse by CONTINUALLY asking "do you do slow speed practice?" or "what's your favorite slow speed practice?".

I ask that because if someone doesn't practice then there's no reason to post.

David Knight or Juha Salmanien didn't do this shit, stop overthinking it, you've topped out on the skill of figure eights!

If practicing wasn't productive I'd stop doing it and just ride around. I looked up Juha Salmanien on wikipedia. Not much information there but he probably started as a 5 or 6 year old. I'm bigger and more breakable than little kids. I think I'll practice instead of what he did.

You'll be at 2,500 hours of riding before you touch a twisty single track. Just quit already, and stop riding in goddamn circles before they have to re-seal the parking lot because of the trench you're wearing in it. What is this, the twilight zone??

Last year, starting brand new I rode 6 months, 2 hours a day, 300 hours total, half of that in the parking lot and the other half riding around, on and off road. The practice is fun and testing skills daily is a confidence builder for a beginner like me. This season, #2, started a couple of weeks ago. Because of the cold air and wet ground the parking lot is the only place to ride, probably until early June so I have LOTS of time to practice. Why leave the bike parked for two months?

I'm just looking to share slow speed practice tips with other people who are interested in that.

Nope. I'm not going to discuss (your interpretation of) practice until you discuss why you think that you have a clearer understanding of motorcycle control and dynamics than people with more skill, experience, and training. Why have you failed to answer the many questions that I have already asked you?

I know almost nothing about your understanding about motorcycles or riding them because you have yet to share any of that in this disucssion. Sorry if I've missed a question you asked.

It might. Since you seem to be concerned for the example I am setting, what kind of example are you setting for those that read your posts?

If I have any other motive besides helping myself ride better may be it's getting other people interested in practice so I have somebody to talk to.

You are barking up the wrong tree here bubba. After 20 years, I have a pretty good number of practicing students.

A few times wannabes have asked me about how to get started. Here's what I say. For the first 300 hours ride a bike lighter than 260 pounds, preferably a lot lighter. Spend at least half those hours training their motor balance system with slow speed work, PLP, and avoid traffic or speeds over 30 mph the rest of the time. Along the way they might ask themselves if they are certain they can maneuver their little beginner bike at least as well their car in an emergency situation. If not moving to a bigger bike is foolhardy. If they're lucky enough to avoid a life changing injury along the way I'll garrantee they won't regret a minute of the practice time, they'll know things that can't be expressed in words, and they won't need any more suggestions from me.

 

[B-Cuz]

If practicing wasn't productive I'd stop doing it and just ride around.

Jumping Jehoshaphat! He's beginning to understand.

This statement is exactly why I kept asking you, "Why confine yourself to a parking lot."

 

[Razel]

I believe you said you do slow speed practice. It would be interesting to hear about what you practice and what techniques you are trying to improve.

Interesting, but not productive in your situation.

Talking about that might set a good example for the less experienced riders.

Then again, it might not without the "doing" part that goes along with it. Since he's an instructor, he's in a better position to determine what is successful and what is not.

A teacher who practices is more likely to have students who practice.

He demonstrates in front of the students he teaches. He shows what the steps are. That qualifies as "practicing", too.

I can tell you this:
He practices.
He teaches.
I've learned from his instruction firsthand.
I continue to practice.
I'll go back again for ERC because, quite frankly, it works.

His method works. It's widely practiced and is successful throughout the country. However, you're attempting to change that method by insisting his knowledge be presented in a manner you want, without the requisite credentials to justify it.

Track schools are great for many reasons. One is that you improve your cornering abilities on pavement. In your case, a sudden turn on pavement won't be of a concern because you've experienced unusual cornering conditions in a much more controlled environment, and you're exposed to the abilities of your bike and yourself such that a real-world surprise isn't a major concern. Question on what you experienced? Immediate feedback and clarification.

Dirt riding schools offer pretty much the same thing. A controlled environment where you can safely explore the limits such that back on the farm, you have the skills to stay safe.

MSF, same thing. Basic street riding skills. Cone patterns. Slow weave, figure 8's.

Your best option at this point is to get out of the box you've wrapped yourself in and consider other methods.

 

[CaptCrash]

I believe you said you do slow speed practice. It would be interesting to hear about what you practice and what techniques you are trying to improve.

You might try reading Enchanter's posts. He speaks to emergency braking, swerving and low speed manuvers. Part of the issue is that you wish to be treated as an equal--which you are not. Enchanter's NOT your peer. He could be a Mentor but that would require you to be coachable. Just for a second imagine that Motorcyclists wore colored belts. Enchantor's is BLACK. Yours is WHITE.

Imagine you walked into the dojo and walked up to the master and said what you've said here: "I wish to be a better warrior" and then followed it up with "I do not wish to be trained. In fact, lets talk about how a master isn't needed to be a warrior."

Think about it. You come in and ask for help, then refuse it? Yet I've seen you do it at every electronic motorcycle Dojo I read.

Everywhere you go you do the same thing and the same thing happens, you obfuscate, ignore, and misdirect the conversation. Then get tossed.

You want control? You want to be the Master--be the Master, start your own forum! Then YOU can wave the flag of freedom and truth.

Talking about that might set a good example for the less experienced riders. A teacher who practices is more likely to have students who practice.

Yes and show us where ANY teacher has discouraged practice? You may feel we discouraged practice but we don't. We discourage randomly repeating bad habits in the wrong place. (Take for example your video of you practicing figure 8s on a public road--I still would actively discourage it. Just like I actively discourage kids from riding in nothing but shorts, a ball cap and flip flops--both activities increase your risk. BOTH are bad ideas.)

I ask that because if someone doesn't practice then there's no reason to post.If practicing wasn't productive I'd stop doing it and just ride around. I'm bigger and more breakable than little kids.

I'm just looking to share slow speed practice tips with other people who are interested in that.

We're VERY interested in slow speed practice. We interested in slow speed practice that IS productive not just repetitive. We're interested in slow speed practice that ingrains good habits. We're interested in slow speed practice done in appropriate places. We're interested in slow speed practice that builds better bikers with real skills and real results.

Clearly, we're not interested in the same things that you are.

If I have any other motive besides helping myself ride better may be it's getting other people interested in practice so I have somebody to talk to.

Dude? Are you just lonely? Is this all a cry for companionship? For conversation and friendship? Then stop acting like an ass and act like someone who wants to have a conversation. Suddenly this has gone from annoying to sad and pathetic--there's other, better ways to get people to talk with you than to constantly acting the belligerant buffoon.

 

[Enchanter]

Sorry if I've missed a question you asked.

Here are a few:

Once again you trust your admittedly limited skill and experience to come to a much different conclusion than those with more skill and experience. Why?

Darn near all of us practice every single time we get on the motorcycle. We practice our skills at turning, shifting, stopping. Yet this practice is unacceptable to you. Why?

Please explain to us how this (figure 8's) is training, and what you are training for?

 

[beginner]

Interesting, but not productive in your situation.Then again, it might not without the "doing" part that goes along with it. Since he's an instructor, he's in a better position to determine what is successful and what is not. He demonstrates in front of the students he teaches. He shows what the steps are. That qualifies as "practicing", too.

This fallacy is called an appeal to authority. It's a fallacy because it's not a response on the merits.

I can tell you this:
He practices.
He teaches.
I've learned from his instruction firsthand.
I continue to practice.
I'll go back again for ERC because, quite frankly, it works.

His method works. It's widely practiced and is successful throughout the country. However, you're attempting to change that method by insisting his knowledge be presented in a manner you want, without the requisite credentials to justify it.

What ever the method is that you refer to it has not been discussed here, only referred to, again, an appeal to authority as a substitute for discussion on the merits.

Track schools are great for many reasons. One is that you improve your cornering abilities on pavement. In your case, a sudden turn on pavement won't be of a concern because you've experienced unusual cornering conditions in a much more controlled environment, and you're exposed to the abilities of your bike and yourself such that a real-world surprise isn't a major concern. Question on what you experienced? Immediate feedback and clarification.

Figure 8s are turning practice. The value of the track school or any formal motorcycle training is directly related to how much practice comes after it.

Dirt riding schools offer pretty much the same thing. A controlled environment where you can safely explore the limits such that back on the farm, you have the skills to stay safe.

A parking lot is a controled environment, meaning no traffic and a predictable surface.

MSF, same thing. Basic street riding skills.

After 6 months and 300 hours I'm still inclined to avoid traffic and let skills improve. I'm still not certain I can maneuver the bike at least as well as my car in an emergency so there's more work to do.

Your best option at this point is to get out of the box you've wrapped yourself in and consider other methods.

You'll have to expand on what you mean by that.

 

[CaptCrash]

The value of the track school or any formal motorcycle training is directly related to how much practice comes after it.

I think you have the appropriate response for yourself.

This fallacy is called an appeal to authority. It's a fallacy because it's not a response on the merits.

Unfortunately your appeal is to your own authority...pray tell, what documentation do you have for Figure 8s? (Beside appealing to your own authority?)

 

[Gnarly Cranium]

I'm going to be blunt: you live in a distorted, ingrown fantasy world. Period. I don't know where you're getting these ideas-- nearly all of us do low-speed drills frequently, we are here to discuss things and educate one another freely, and if you insist on believing otherwise, we cannot freekin help you with that.

You are the only one here having this type of experience. You are the only one here getting this kind of 'interference', and it is due to problems with your own communication skills.

For the love of all that's good and holy in the universe, get the hell OUT of Michigan. Go somewhere heavily populated, socialize, climb out of your own ass, unclench, take in some new experiences and new ideas. It's a lot more fun out here in the fresh air, I promise. I'm serious. Watching you live like this-- and treat other people like this-- is actually sortof depressing.


Guys-- Crash, Enchanter, I love you, you guys try so damn hard, but try not to let this stuff get under your skin, I don't think he has any idea what he's done.

 

[beginner]

pray tell, what documentation do you have for Figure 8s? (Beside appealing to your own authority?)

I find racers, motor police and trials riders using figure 8s as a core exercise. I find, from first hand experience, that it's the most productive turning/leaning exercise I have. It's not a substitute for practicing Uturns and weaves but of the three I seem to spend the most time on 8s.

nearly all of us do low-speed drills frequently, we are here to discuss things and educate one another freely, and if you insist on believing otherwise, we cannot freekin help you with that.

It's great to hear you do low speed practice drills. Some time it would be interesting to here what exercises you like or how you do them.

You are the only one here having this type of experience. You are the only one here getting this kind of 'interference', and it is due to problems with your own communication skills.

I'm the only one posting who wants to share ideas about slow speed practice. As far as communications skills, I've tried to be polite even when that's not returned in kind.

Go somewhere heavily populated

If I was some place heavily populated I probably wouldn't ride a motorcycle.

 

[CaptCrash]

Guys-- Crash, Enchanter, I love you, you guys try so damn hard, but try not to let this stuff get under your skin, I don't think he has any idea what he's done.

I'll be straight up with you--there's a lot of pity and hope when it comes to this big steaming pile. beginner is a late starter. I believe he's about 50-60 years old. He's looking for a new thrill. He found one--riding motorcycles. Unfortunately it's a risky proposition and, over 40, it can mean minor injuries can easily become major issues.

See, beginner desperately wants to do it "right" so he won't be injured. It's a very common thing that we despised "experts" run into when we train older riders--they want to maximize the thrill and to minimize thier risk. That's why they get trained in droves, buy books, subscribe to mags, and join forums--to get as much skill and training as they can to minimize their risk.

beginner feels he can't get trained so he's created a cirriculum for himself and spends plenty of energy denigrating training. He's created a panacea, a talisman that he can latch onto that will keep him 'safe'. He's found it in Figure 8s. Without the idea that his Figure 8s will magically save him--he couldn't ride.

That's why he loathes all who discuss research driven, trials tested, best practices cirrirculum; because if those things work--his juju won't.

Failing, doing it wrong--is just something he can't fathom. Next Saturday I get to teach Experienced Training. I get to work with guys who are worried about "doing it right" because they "don't want to get hurt". It's a blessing. They'll be coachable, ready to learn and above all? Motivated.

And if there's a 'beginner' in the class? The neat thing is by the end of the day--they'll be a 'believer'.

 

[beginner]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enchanter
Once again you trust your admittedly limited skill and experience to come to a much different conclusion than those with more skill and experience. Why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enchanter
Darn near all of us practice every single time we get on the motorcycle. We practice our skills at turning, shifting, stopping. Yet this practice is unacceptable to you. Why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enchanter
Please explain to us how this (figure 8's) is training, and what you are training for?

I think I addressed these, may be you weren't satisfied with the answers. The first one refers to no particular issue so it's impossible to respond. The second does not refer to slow speed practice. The third I did address directly but if you have an opinion about a more productive slow speed turning exercise feel free to describe it.

 

[CaptCrash]

I think I addressed these, may be you weren't satisfied with the answers. The first one refers to no particular issue so it's impossible to respond. The second does not refer to slow speed practice. The third I did address directly but if you have an opinion about a more productive slow speed turning exercise feel free to describe it.

THAT is some weak, weak sauce.

I find racers, motor police and trials riders using figure 8s as a core exercise. I find, from first hand experience, that it's the most productive turning/leaning exercise I have. It's not a substitute for practicing Uturns and weaves but of the three I seem to spend the most time on 8s.It's great to hear you do low speed practice drills. Some time it would be interesting to here what exercises you like or how you do them.I'm the only one posting who wants to share ideas about slow speed practice. As far as communications skills, I've tried to be polite even when that's not returned in kind.If I was some place heavily populated I probably wouldn't ride a motorcycle.

Which racer? Name one and give us a quote or reference where they say (and help me if I'm misstating your position) that Figure 8s are the gold standard of practice.

What part of Figure 8 training teaches swerving?

What part of Figure 8 training teaches turning from a stop?

What part of Figure 8 training teaches braking/then swerve

What part of Figure 8 training teaches swerve/then brake?

What part of Figure 8 training teaches traffic interaction?

What part of Figure 8 training teaches braking in a curve?

What part of Figure 8 training teaches max braking (from 30mph)?

What part of Figure 8 training teaches entry speed selection?

What part of Figure 8 training teaches positive throttle in a turn?

Why do I ask? Because that's all part of what we'll be teaching next weekend. Figure 8s don't help with any of these real world based skills.

 

[Enchanter]

Figure 8s are turning practice.

Figure 8's can be useful if you interpret the 'results' correctly. the following quote from you shows that you did not interpret them correctly.

The Wright brothers knew about countersteering.

"Counter steering" needs to be explained over and over because it needs to be understood, not just accepted. Here is how I explain it to myself.

To establish a turn I do 2 things, lean the bike by countersteering and/or counter balancing, then, to initiate the turn, the front wheel needs to be pointed in the direction of the turn--with one caveat, the amount of slip in the rear tire. There is always some slip. The more there is the less the front wheel needs to be turned.

I use countersteering to mean a technique for influencing the lean of the bike with with the steering bar and counterbalancing to mean a technique for influencing the lean of the bike by shifting the rider's upper body weight.

I counter steer by pushing horizontally on one end of the steering bar. That leans the bike by steering the front wheel out from under the bike. If I push downward on one end of the steering bar that leans the bike by shifting my body weight in the opposite direction the bike leans--counter balancing. Putting more weight on a peg is also counter balancing because it pushes the upper body weight to the opposite side from the peg. Body weight can also be shifted by leaning from your midsection and/or by moving your bottom off the center of the seat to one side.

As a practical matter the bike is always leaned in the direction of the turn, even at the slowest speeds. It's possible to turn the bike when it's leaning away from the turn but the rider will need to shift upper body weight to the inside of the turn to compensate--doable on a light weight bike at a very slow speeds but clumsy and difficult. At higher speeds the rider would not have enough body mass to compensate for a bike that's leaning away from the direction of a turn.

My understanding in practice is countersteering and/or counterbalancing cause the lean, not the turn. A steering input in the front and/or the rear is still needed before there is a turn.

There's one more caveat in my view of turning. Once a turn is established it's possible to increase or decrease the rate of turn by changing only the lean angle of the bike, with no movement of the steering bar. The tighter the turn the easier it is to feel that. The reason, I believe, is because changing the lean angle of the bike, when the wheel is turned, moves the front tire's contact patch forward or backward along the tire.

If you think I've got any of this wrong feel free to disagree.

We disagreed in the original thread, but you refuse to accept that more well read motorcyclists, more skilled motorcyclists, have more correct information than you do. Why? (another question for you)

Many of the techniques that you are using to practice figure 8's at slow speed will not help you properly control the motorcycle at speeds frequently encountered on the street (and even higher speeds in the dirt). We have tried to point this out to you but you still feel that you are correct and we are not. Why? (another question for you) It is very likely that your false sense of security in your turning 'skill' will end poorly due to your skills only being gained by doing figure 8's. You won't figure this out until you need the correct skill, and you won't have it.

At one point you even found a book to reference (Motorcycle Dynamics by Cossalter). That book is one of many in my library. How many motorcycling books and magazines do you currently have in your library?

INteractions with you lead readers to believe that if you do not understand something, or are unable to experience it, that it must not be true. Do you really feel this way?

I find racers, motor police and trials riders using figure 8s as a core exercise.

What information do you have that would indicate that this is one of their "core exercises"? It's an exercise. One of many that can help build certain skills. It isn't the best, nor is it the only. It helps build certain specific skills, but it doesn't build all the skills needed in cornering.

 

[masameet]

Wow. This thread's still alive!

Hey, beginner. We're doing cone practice this Sunday. Too bad you live too far from us to join.

Also last weekend I did a dirt bike camp. Had a lotta fun. Your bike's a dirt bike. Why you don't spend more time on the dirt, learning to slide it in the dirt, is a puzzlement.

In doing your Figure 8's on pavement, are you weighting the outside peg?

Dunno why you want to slip the rear wheel/tire in doing slow-speed maneuvers on asphalt. You actually want to do that in the dirt, to help transition to a quick tight turn or U-turn. It's pretty neat too to slide the rear wheel and watch somebody do it too in the dirt.

Anyway if this thread is still alive in another two weeks, I'll be even more highly amused.

 

[beginner]

Which racer? Name one and give us a quote or reference where they say (and help me if I'm misstating your position) that Figure 8s are the gold standard of practice.

I showed you a video of a racer doing large figure 8s and I've seen several others.

What part of Figure 8 training teaches swerving?

Since I don't ride in traffic so swerving exercises didn't interest me much until I'd been riding for several months. When I finally set up some I found I was doing them without trouble from the start.

What part of Figure 8 training teaches turning from a stop?

Turns from a stop was another one I didn't need because I'm not in traffic. Again, after a couple months of other practice I found them effortless to do. I might have an advantage in some of these because I ride a 240 pound bike.

What part of Figure 8 training teaches braking/then swerve

I wasn't comfortable with maximum braking until this year. My compensation for that was limiting speeds and avoiding traffic. Lately I'm practicing hard braking and enjoying it. The swerve is easy already because of so much turning practice, however, I was not starting to maneuver effectively until after 12 weeks because I was still stiff on the bike (numb hands on the grips in practice is the giveaway). I got over that when I started using upper body weight effectively to influence the lean of the bike.

What part of Figure 8 training teaches swerve/then brake?

As above.

What part of Figure 8 training teaches traffic interaction?

I'm a beginner, I don't interact with traffic.

What part of Figure 8 training teaches braking in a curve?

The only safe way I know to brake in a curve is find a way to some how establish straight path before applying the brake. I'm not putting myself in situations where I'd need to do that, there are other things to work on first.

What part of Figure 8 training teaches max braking (from 30mph)?

As mentioned before, I wasn't comfortable with maximum braking until this Spring. I would say though that once I started to get reasonably proficient with figure 8s they had a lot to teach about traction.

What part of Figure 8 training teaches entry speed selection?

I'm working on simpler stuff, other beginners can go die on the twisties, I'll pass on that until I'm better at some other things.

What part of Figure 8 training teaches positive throttle in a turn?

I use the throttle to adjust the lean of the bike in turns, including figure 8s. Increasing throttle in a turn was a challenge last summer. I made up an exercise to learn it I call a snap turn. It's a 90 degree turn on a 9' radius. I do it by leaning the bike far and fast (at least that's how it feels) with counter balancing then stabilize the lean with a turn of the wheel AND goosing the throttle as I do that and the throttle helps stand the bike back up. To practice that I used a figure 8 in the shape of 2 big squares attached like a figure 8.

Why do I ask? Because that's all part of what we'll be teaching next weekend. Figure 8s don't help with any of these real world based skills.

My program has been much more laid back. My first day on the bike was one 15 minute ride. The second day was 30 minutes, and it built from there. There is no way I'd have subjected myself to back to back six hour sessions for my first two days on a bike. Last year I could ride around for one hour and practice for one hour before my concentration declined. This year I can concentrate well for 3 hours but it remains to be seen if I can spend it all on practice with good concentration. I don't learn squat on the bike when I'm tired or stressed out.

 

[CaptCrash]

I showed you a video of a racer doing large figure 8s and I've seen several others.

So your appeal to authority is YouTube?

You found a video of a guy with a leather on an RC250 on a parking lot in Japan and that makes it gospel?

Dude. Your sauce keeps getting weaker. You want someone to validate you. We're not going to do that.

Low speed practice should have a goal. Ours is to prepare riders for the street. NONE of our exercises fit your goal...your goal is to...not prepare for street riding. Help me understand cause all our wonderful, best practices, tested, proven exercises DON'T apply to what you want to do...what is your goal?

Our goal is to help rider's embed survival reactions and increase situational awareness while arming riders with strategies for street survival.

No wonder we don't agree--our goals are different. If you'd like to discuss low speed practice, tell us what your goal is and we'll help you find exercises to practice.

Take your braking for example. You were under utilizing the front and skidding the rear (for a distance DOUBLE what a reasonable stopping standard should be). We helped you get your skids under control and shorten your stopping distances.

WE HELPED. Let us help some more. What is your goal?

 

[beginner]

Hey, beginner. We're doing cone practice this Sunday. Too bad you live too far from us to join.

I would be there if I could.

Your bike's a dirt bike. Why you don't spend more time on the dirt, learning to slide it in the dirt, is a puzzlement.

When soil conditions are right I practice more off the pavement. This is Michigan, early April, yesterday's forcast for the middle of next week is a foot of snow.

In doing your Figure 8's on pavement, are you weighting the outside peg?

"Pushing" down on a peg is nothing more than shifting upper body weight from side to side. If your body weight is mostly supported by the seat there are less tiring ways to shift body weight than pushing on a peg. I'm usually seated in figure 8s so I can shift body weight with leverage between seat and knees in contact with the tank.

Dunno why you want to slip the rear wheel/tire in doing slow-speed maneuvers on asphalt. You actually want to do that in the dirt, to help transition to a quick tight turn or U-turn. It's pretty neat too to slide the rear wheel and watch somebody do it too in the dirt.

Last fall I did some rear wheel slip off the pavement. In the mean time I like the pavement for feeling what the bike is doing and minimizing "noise" from rougher off road surfaces.

Figure 8's can be useful if you interpret the 'results' correctly. the following quote from you shows that you did not interpret them correctly.

Beginner wrote "My understanding in practice is countersteering and/or counterbalancing cause the lean, not the turn. A steering input in the front and/or the rear is still needed before there is a turn."

We disagreed in the original thread, but you refuse to accept that more well read motorcyclists, more skilled motorcyclists, have more correct information than you do. Why? (another question for you)

When I wrote what's above you didn't specifically agree or disagree and you still don't but here, coincidentally, is some evidence I noticed yesterday from a book you own. Go to page 303 of Cossalter's book on motorcycle dynamics and you'll see he describes counter steering as a technique for leaning the bike, which must be followed by steering in the direction of the turn to start the turn. http://books.google.com/books?id=rJ...lr=&num=100&as_brr=0&as_pt=ALLTYPES#PPA303,M1 The push right-go-right description may be useful on the practice range in the context of a three day course but it creates confusion later and the evidence is a lot of people who think that somehow steering to the right can make a motorcycle go too the left, which it can't. Again I'll say, countersteering leans the bike, it does not turn the bike. I figured this out by refelecting on the massive amount of turning practice I did last summer. It's nice to see it confirmed in a commonly used motorcycle dynamics book.

Many of the techniques that you are using to practice figure 8's at slow speed will not help you properly control the motorcycle at speeds frequently encountered on the street (and even higher speeds in the dirt).

It was never my goal to be ready for traffic after a few days of preparation. There are things I can do and things I can't do. I try to compensate for what I can't do by limiting how and where I operate. I'm more conservative about traffic and speed during learning compared to the community and industry norms.

It is very likely that your false sense of security in your turning 'skill' will end poorly due to your skills only being gained by doing figure 8's. You won't figure this out until you need the correct skill, and you won't have it.

In the practice yard you're testing skills and reminding yourself of what you can and cannot do. This is useful to safety once you realize that skill and experience are not exactly the same thing. I have to discipline myself to ride substantially below my skills, outside practice, to compensate for lack of experience. The specifics of what you and I might disagree about are hard to pin down because you virtually never respond on the merits.

At one point you even found a book to reference (Motorcycle Dynamics by Cossalter). That book is one of many in my library. How many motorcycling books and magazines do you currently have in your library?

I don't have any paper books on motocycles. If some useful references are available in digital editions, that can be stored on my notebook hard drive, I might part with some money for them. I see the Barnes and Noble price for new is $50 for a paper version. I won't be spending that at this point. I'm not interested in books focused on competition or surviving in traffic. I'd love to have a book focused on slow speed skills, gymkhana or police style maneuvering.

INteractions with you lead readers to believe that if you do not understand something, or are unable to experience it, that it must not be true. Do you really feel this way?

What I've noticed so far is my "understanding" of technique or dynamics is superficial at best until I can feel it on the bike but understanding on some level helps find the technique and establish the feel. There's a chicken and egg process at work with the bike. I'm cautious about intellectual "understanding" when it comes to the motorcycle because it's the doing, not some presumed understanding that counts. Good understanding helps avoid misperceptions, the difference between how something feels and what's acturally happening.

What information do you have that would indicate that this is one of their "core exercises"? It's an exercise. One of many that can help build certain skills. It isn't the best, nor is it the only. It helps build certain specific skills, but it doesn't build all the skills needed in cornering.

Practice is repetitions spaced close together in time to accomodate how the the human motor/balance system likes to learn. The beauty of figure 8s is you are turning continuously without getting dizzy. At this point, for me, figure 8s aren't an exercise so much as a pattern. I use the pattern to practice a variety of things depending on size, speed, etc. I've never said figure 8s replace all other exercises.

 

[beginner]

Low speed practice should have a goal. Ours is to prepare riders for the street. Our goal is to help rider's embed survival reactions and increase situational awareness while arming riders with strategies for street survival.

What I see is your goal is to get people feeling they are ready for speed and traffic long long before that's a reality safety wise. My opinion is it's prudent for brand newbies to focus on skills and avoid traffic for hundreds of hours. My opinion is not the community or industry norm.

You were under utilizing the front and skidding the rear (for a distance DOUBLE what a reasonable stopping standard should be). We helped you get your skids under control and shorten your stopping distances.

You did point out that error and that was helpful. It was also confirmed by an observer I invited to the parking lot. Please take note, when I decide I'm wrong about something I'm eager to be the first to admit it.

What is your goal?

To be skilled on the bike because craving skill feeds my motorcycle addiction more safely than craving thrills at speed or in traffic.

 

[CaptCrash]

What I've noticed so far is my "understanding" of technique or dynamics is superficial at best until I can feel it on the bike but understanding on some level helps find the technique and establish the feel... Good understanding helps avoid misperceptions, the difference between how something feels and what's acturally happening...At this point, for me, figure 8s aren't an exercise so much as a pattern. I use the pattern to practice a variety of things depending on size, speed, etc. I've never said figure 8s replace all other exercises.

Good. Then you understand that 'head and eyes up, looking well ahead' is a very important philisophical action as well as good motorcycling. The question is: where do you want to go? The answer you give is:

To be skilled on the bike because craving skill feeds my motorcycle addiction more safely than craving thrills at speed or in traffic.

And we see your primary goal is "SAFETY". You want to be "SAFE" while you ride the bike. Which is a normal and healthy desire. Unfortunately "safety" isn't somewhere motorcycles will go.

I'm assuming since you don't want to spend money on motorcycle books you probably don't want to spend money on a dictionary so from www.dictionary.com:

SAFE 1. secure from liability to harm, injury, danger, or risk: a safe place.
2. free from hurt, injury, danger, or risk: to arrive safe and sound.

Which is the antithesis of motorcycling. Motorcycling is fun because of risk! A little risk gets your heart beating. Managing that risk keeps your brain sharp.

Your Figure 8s aren't safe. In fact, if you can get the speed up to slide, they become extraordinarily dangerous. For you, your Figure 8's are:

COMFORTABLE 1. (of clothing, furniture, etc.) producing or affording physical comfort, support, or ease: a comfortable chair; comfortable shoes.
2. being in a state of physical or mental comfort; contented and undisturbed; at ease: to be comfortable in new shoes; I don't feel comfortable in the same room with her.

You're seeking comfort under the guise of safety. By imagining you're sliding the rear when you aren't you become comfortable in you illusiion of safety. Being overly comfortable leads to:

COMPLACENCY 1. a feeling of quiet pleasure or security, often while unaware of some potential danger, defect, or the like; self-satisfaction or smug satisfaction with an existing situation, condition, etc.

TRULY your explaination of how you feel about Figure 8s is the vivid living expression of complacency. You believe you've got things undercontrol and feel and control every input and reaction. Your illlusion is that you're totally in control and the minutae are under your control. Your insistance that you were NOT skidding when you were was an excellent example of misunderstanding motorcycle dynamics. The nice part was you were able to get an observer to help you out.

What is an observer?

OBSERVER: noun, 1. someone or something that observes.

OBSERVE: verb, 1. to see, watch, perceive, or notice: He observed the passersby in the street.
2. to regard with attention, esp. so as to see or learn something: I want you to observe her reaction to the judge's question.
3. to watch, view, or note for a scientific, official, or other special purpose: to observe an eclipse.

Thankfully you've been posting beaucoup videos at YouTube. WE have been observing those videos. We observe you comfortably running your figure 8s. We see things like your head turns improve, your body position reveal your preference for left hand turns, and the fact that the bike isn't sliding.

And we can do that all from the luxury of our own homes. People have been observing you, and helping you. Isn't that what you want?

I'd observe right now that you've done too many Figure 8s. You're soooo comfortable with them that you've become complacent.

Start by getting a goal. "Getting more skills" ISN'T a goal. It's a cop out. It's a way of saying--"I have no idea". Imagine asking a Teenager "what do you want to be?" and they respond "Rich". (Yeah, "getting more skills" is the same as "Rich")

What is your goal? If a teen told me "Rich" I would:

1. Ask them to quantify what "Rich" meant. (How much dough is rich? 40K?)
2. Ask them to list jobs that paid that well.
3. Ask them to list jobs that paid that well that they were interested in.
4. Ask them how do people get those jobs? What schooling/training do they need.
5. Ask them to map a path from where THEY are to that job.
6. Ask them if they are willing to do the work to get there from here.

That said...

beginner:

1. What do you mean by "To be skilled on the bike"?