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Slow speed practice, no experts please

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Naw. You push down on the outside peg when turning to help minimize the possibility of the rear wheel slipping when riding on slippery surfaces, like dirt, gravel, rain, etc. Don't be so quick to dismiss accepted technique for both dirt and street bikes.

And because your bike is a dirt bike with knobby tires, you really should take it out on wet and snowy dirt roads just to see how it handles and how you handle the bike. Most dirt bikers welcome wet and muddy conditions. That's when the real fun and learning happen on a dirt bike, as in those conditions a rider truly learns how to balance and slide the bike and test his/her own mettle.

Anyway I think your inability to see what more experienced riders are suggesting as valid points in this and that other thread of yours is your great shortcoming. I bet if you were to come to our cone practice, you would disagree more often than accept our thoughts, advice and techniques. Since starting cone practice last May, I've encountered only two riders who disagreed with the basics of riding that we were offering. One even told me he disagreed with the retired motor LEOs who had tried to teach him the same techniques in the Alameda County Sheriff's 1-day civilian motor course. I believe disagreeable riders seldom learn and progress, they are so set in their own adamant thinking that they cannot think outside of the box.

Again my opinion: In riding a motorcycle, whether on the street or in the dirt, a rider must learn to think outside the box and to challenge his techniques. As riders, few of us are immune to improvement. And if a rider only has one way of doing things, when the time comes for doing something new and different in the face of imminent danger, that rider will revert to doing what he is most comfortable with. In some cases that one technique may well turn out to be detrimental, if not fatal.

Challenge yourself, beginner, to try other riders' techniques. If you ever leave the relative safety of that parking lot, your life may depend on using some other rider's technique.
 
Again I'll say, countersteering leans the bike, it does not turn the bike. I figured this out by refelecting on the massive amount of turning practice I did last summer. It's nice to see it confirmed in a commonly used motorcycle dynamics book.
Countersteering by itself does cause the bike to turn. As a consequence, the bike usually leans. Weighting the bike on one side (bike remains vertical) can also cause the bike to turn. Reality is, the front tire turns the bike. Countersterring is a means of directing the front tire to change directions, and that's not because the bike leans as well. What you need to consider is how the front tire accomplishes changing the direction the bike takes.
 
Naw. You push down on the outside peg when turning to help minimize the possibility of the rear wheel slipping when riding on slippery surfaces, like dirt, gravel, rain, etc. Don't be so quick to dismiss accepted technique for both dirt and street bikes.
Pushing down or putting weight on a peg is a technique that leans the bike and it works. The effect of pushing on a peg is to shift upper body weight to the opposite side of the bike. Because of the shift of upper body weight the bike leans towards to the side with the peg you're putting weight on. I was just trying to say there are other ways to shift upper body weight besides pushing on a peg. I try to avoid weighting pegs because it's tiring in practice where there are going to be a lot of repetitions.
I bet if you were to come to our cone practice, you would disagree more often than accept our thoughts, advice and techniques. Since starting cone practice last May, I've encountered only two riders who disagreed with the basics of riding that we were offering. One even told me he disagreed with the retired motor LEOs who had tried to teach him the same techniques in the Alameda County Sheriff's 1-day civilian motor course. I believe disagreeable riders seldom learn and progress, they are so set in their own adamant thinking that they cannot think outside of the box.
If I can locate an event within 100 miles with lots of motorcycles and slow speed practice activities as you describe I'd be sorely tempted to haul the bike there or just go to watch people who might been doing it longer than me. I need a new video camera. When I have that I intend to make more riding videos.
Again my opinion: In riding a motorcycle, whether on the street or in the dirt, a rider must learn to think outside the box and to challenge his techniques. As riders, few of us are immune to improvement.
If I thought there was nothing to improve I wouldn't practice.

Today I found that leaning back in Uturns and figure 8s, to the point where my arm on the outside of the turn is fully extended, improves accuracy noticably. I don't yet understand why. Tomorrow I'm going to see if it helps with offset coneweaves.
 
Pushing down or putting weight on a peg is a technique that leans the bike and it works. The effect of pushing on a peg is to shift upper body weight to the opposite side of the bike. Because of the shift of upper body weight the bike leans towards to the side with the peg you're putting weight on.
One more technique were you only have partial knowledge and feel that you completely understand. Masameet was correct in her description on what can be gained by doing so. It is possible to weight either peg, and not shift body weight to the opposite side of the bike. Just because you haven't experienced that yet doesn't mean it doesn't work or happen.

Here is an example of you thinking that you have more correct information than others that have more skill. Why do you feel this way?
 
beginner:

1. What do you mean by "To be skilled on the bike"?
 
And we see your primary goal is "SAFETY".
If the primary goal was safety I would stop riding. I tell people, if you don't ride, don't start.
Your Figure 8s aren't safe. In fact, if you can get the speed up to slide, they become extraordinarily dangerous.
My figure 8s are not as dangerous as riding in traffic.
Thankfully you've been posting beaucoup videos at YouTube. WE have been observing those videos. We observe you comfortably running your figure 8s. We see things like your head turns improve, your body position reveal your preference for left hand turns.
I'm left handed. Here's an interesting thing, 9 of my eleven falls have been to the left side.
And we can do that all from the luxury of our own homes. People have been observing you, and helping you. Isn't that what you want?
What I've been hoping for is peer to peer discussion of practice on the merits.
I'd observe right now that you've done too many Figure 8s. You're soooo comfortable with them that you've become complacent.
Figure 8s aren't going anywhere. I've got a lot of variations and it taught me a couple of interesting lessons just today.
Start by getting a goal. "Getting more skills" ISN'T a goal. It's a cop out. It's a way of saying--"I have no idea".
I'll disagree with you on this. The bike is, at best, a frivilous past time that I happen to adore. Pure skill is the most satisfying part of the past time, for me. I don't ever intend to specialize on any of the convetional motorcycle riding styles. I'm impressed by, gymkhana, motor police, trials, dirt, etc. Over time I'll borrow from all of them.
What do you mean by "To be skilled on the bike"?
First it remains to see how far I'll progress but, on the farm, back in the day, the horse and I were poised, balanced, and collected. We could maneuver intricately and with finess. We could slip in and out of tight spaces, we could open things up for a good gallop once in a while and we did it all bareback. What I had on the horse was many years of practice which I lack on the bike. I wasn't a klutzy horseback rider, I'm not going to settle for being a mediocre bike rider.
 
It is possible to weight either peg, and not shift body weight to the opposite side of the bike.
Try this experiment. Riding a straight path at 5-7 mph and push down on a peg and the bike leans. Repeat this but make the midsection of your body tight then push on a peg and notice your bottom starts to rise from the seat on the strength of one leg and the bike does not lean. Pushing on a peg either shifts body weight to the opposite side or raises it straight up. Those are your two possibilities.
 
I don't ever intend to specialize on any of the convetional motorcycle riding styles. I'm impressed by, gymkhana, motor police, trials, dirt, etc. Over time I'll borrow from all of them.

This is useful. You intend to reinvent motorcycling. That's a good start. Wouldn't you agree that if you're going to reinvent something you should get grounded in the basics before you redesign it?

Perhaps it's time to reach out and create the society you want. Let's face it, we're all mired in the old school thinking. We have been trained, tried, and tested and we feel confident that what the old school teaches is...well, correct. Asking us to sit back and let you misuse, abuse and ignore good physics (and sense) is kinda crazy. Wasn't is Einstein who said "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result"?

Maybe it's time to break the insane loop and start a new forum--one based on your beliefs and theories. There are no converts to be had here AND we're always going to call BS on your faulty and potentially dangerous ideas.

First it remains to see how far I'll progress but, on the farm, back in the day, the horse and I were poised, balanced, and collected. We could maneuver intricately and with finess. We could slip in and out of tight spaces, we could open things up for a good gallop once in a while and we did it all bareback. What I had on the horse was many years of practice which I lack on the bike. I wasn't a klutzy horseback rider, I'm not going to settle for being a mediocre bike rider.

You understand half the equation in your horseriding calculation was the horse? It can ignore a bad command. It can override your inputs? It thinks?

I'm sure you've heard the old addage: "A great horse can make a bad rider look good?"

In this situation it's all on you.

Wanna be a great rider and get in and out of tight places? Practice "swerving then braking" and "braking then swerving" (In your situation think trees or animals that get into your path).

Wanna be a great rider and work in intricate spaces? Try offset weaves of varying distance and spread. (In your situation think of staying on the trail or working in and out of gates).

Worried you won't "look good" doing it? Then welcome to the club. We all have klutzy moments. Want to feel one? Put your 1/2 balls on the intersection of EVERY parking line down the center of your range. Give it a try. You're gonna look ugly and klutzy and awkward. And you'll get it right once in a while and miss some...Why? Cause it's all on you, the horse won't help.

WE ALL SUCK once in a while. You're afraid (and truly I get more frightened every layer we peel off this onion) that you'll get hurt and look stupid in the process.

Welcome to the human race.

Don't live your life ruled by fear. It explians why you're alone in the wilderness.
 
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Try this experiment. Riding a straight path at 5-7 mph and push down on a peg and the bike leans. Repeat this but make the midsection of your body tight then push on a peg and notice your bottom starts to rise from the seat on the strength of one leg and the bike does not lean. Pushing on a peg either shifts body weight to the opposite side or raises it straight up. Those are your two possibilities.

OK, MR. I have less than 300hrs riding. You fail (yet again) to consider that the handling dynamics of a motorcycle change with speed and skilled input. Once more you feel qualified to make statements regarding things you have never experienced.

I've been riding motorcycles since 1982. From 1982 to 1988 it was my only form of transportation. In 1997 I chose to keep my car in the garage and only ride a motorcycle until 2001. I have done many trackdays and taken instruction from others. I have been involved in motorcycle safety for 20 years. I have taught darn near 10,000 people how to ride a motorcycle. I've been on BARF since 2002 and haven't done anything suspension worthy until now.

Charlie, you are a fucking idiot. One arrogant son of a bitch. I have not conversed with a more stupid individual in my entire life. There are not words to describe how incredibly foolish you are. You take pride in a level of ignorance that few people have ever seen. You are quite practiced at it. You are a professional fool. Congratulations. Dumbass.

For the rest of you BARFers, I'll see you in 7days.
 
Enchanter--you hit the nail on the head.

1981 was a good year to start wasn't it? 16in front wheels were just showing up. Suspensions were switching to MonoShocks...GS1000s...Interceptors...Ninjas around the corner...GSXRs in the rumor stage. OH CB750Fs!

OH, chucky3? You really want to see what a horse can do? Bring 600 cows 18 miles across the desert with one. I've done it and routinely watch 10 year old girls ride like pros because they have good horses. You really want to see something? Watch a 15 year old girl bring 100 cows 200 feet down into a canyon...one of those canyons where as they ride down--they let go of the reins so the horse can have it's own head and bring them both down safe.

The KLX is a good horse, but if you tell it to do something dangerous and stupid--IT WILL. It don't love you, it don't hate you, it don't care about you, it's not going to try and save itself when you tell it to be stupid--it'll just do what it's told.
 
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This is useful. You intend to reinvent motorcycling. That's a good start. Wouldn't you agree that if you're going to reinvent something you should get grounded in the basics before you redesign it?
I ride a totally stock bike with a tire change.
Maybe it's time to break the insane loop and start a new forum--one based on your beliefs and theories. There are no converts to be had here AND we're always going to call BS on your faulty and potentially dangerous ideas.
I seem to have one opinion that's controversial, that a lot of slow speed practice is important.
You understand half the equation in your horseriding calculation was the horse? It can ignore a bad command. It can override your inputs? It thinks?
Depends on the rider and the horse and their skills and discipline. It's true that the bike is all mechanical controls, the horse is fly by wire.
I'm sure you've heard the old addage: "A great horse can make a bad rider look good?"
But if the rider trained the horse...
Wanna be a great rider and get in and out of tight places? Practice...
I'm always on the lookout for interesting exercises and I'll create them for sticking points when I have to.
Put your 1/2 balls on the intersection of EVERY parking line down the center of your range. Give it a try. You're gonna look ugly and klutzy and awkward.
If you mean 9' spacing with no offset that has never been a problem. The frustrating one is 12' with 2' offset as I've told you in the past. I can do it but not elegantly. My goal is to do that one as smooth as your youtube demonstration. I'm going to set that one up tomorrow and see if today's leaning-back discovery helps like it seems to in other turning.
 
Try this experiment. Riding a straight path at 5-7 mph and push down on a peg and the bike leans. Repeat this but make the midsection of your body tight then push on a peg and notice your bottom starts to rise from the seat on the strength of one leg and the bike does not lean.
The bike, however, still turns even though you are moved vertically. Why is that? You stated that the bike turns because the bike leans. But the bike isn't leaning, yet it's changing direction.
Pushing on a peg either shifts body weight to the opposite side or raises it straight up. Those are your two possibilities.
You are incorrect. Watch dirt riders in the corner. They push the bike to the inside with the bars, weight the outside peg, yet remain on the same side as they are weighting the peg on. They are not rising vertically, either
Your "experiment" is giving you partial feedback which you're drawing wrong conclusions from.

As you've said, riding a motorcycle is a frivilous activity for you. So, if you do make a mistake, it's part of your learing process. However, what is more than perfectly clear at this point, is that you should not, under any circumstances, have any motorcycle-riding-related conversation with an unskilled rider or offer riding advice to anyone who asks.
 
What I've been hoping for is peer to peer discussion of practice on the merits.
Based on everything I've heard you say in this thread, this is a deluded statement at best. For some reason you have a deep-seated resentment of 'experts' because they only want to take your money. If you think that's the case here, you are a moron, and need to abandon BARF, if not motorcycles, entirely. Phobia aside, you are NOT the 'peer' you think you are. Having a bike does not make you a 'peer' when discussing training. You are a student, a noob, a neophyte, fresh blood, a beginner. Furthermore, you do not WANT a peer, you WANT your betters, EXPERTS ideally. 'Hey, I've never handled a loaded weapon before, guess I should learn to be the best by talking about gun safety with someone who hasn't either!' Do you comprehend how ridiculous you sound? What happened to the beginner with the tag line, 'Teach me everything'? And what the hell were you thinking to put 'I didn't ask any questions.' in your signature?

What I've been hoping for is peer to peer discussion of practice on the merits.
Merits? I don't think anyone would tell you that practice is bad. I don't think anyone would tell you that water is bad, either, but if all you do for the rest of your life is drink water, you won't live very long. Mental training is just as important as physical training; you won't get sharper if you dull yourself in that lot.

Then... you shot yourself in the foot. Advocating thousands of hours of 'practice' to develop 'skills' (as an end to itself), confident that your methods from your own minuscule experience will produce a superior rider...
I try to avoid weighting pegs because it's tiring in practice where there are going to be a lot of repetitions.
but when it comes down to it you admit that you're actually too lazy for real training and would rather just play around with yourself. Guess what? If weighting pegs is tiring for you, than your training SHOULD be tiring. That's the point of training, to do EXACTLY what you're anticipating in the future. When you practice half-assed, you'll only ever end up being half-assed. So what you're telling us is that despite your personal code of 'asking yourself if you can maneuver better than a car,' all you'll ever really end up doing is faking it. Once you can get over your ego you can participate productively on BARF. Until then, don't use your fallback excuse that 'no one wants to talk about specifics' because really they shouldn't waste their time talking to someone who won't listen.
 
I agree with Tim and his posts/actions about twice a year, however after patiently lurking the non-sense that is this thread, all I can say is that Time(Enchanter) is full of win. He was patient in the face and smell of bullshit but was speaking to a rubber wall whom seemed to "not want to be wrong" about anything. Eventually patience could only last for so long and the Mod gloves came off, way to show you're still human Tim, :thumbup
 
This is some wacky shit that's for sure. I may do the copy and paste...:twofinger
 
Tim :thumbup

full_of_win.jpg
 
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