Slow speed practice, no experts please

[beginner]

There shouldn't be personal attacks and coarse language put in posts. Those hurt the converstation.

I made a post this morning that doesn't appear, hmmm. This morning I set up a 2' offset cone weave, 12' foot spacing, for the first time since last year. It has been a frustrating exercise because I can do it reliably but it's clunky, akward. Here's Crash's smooth version, which I aspire to. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NveeMl5N-Nc&feature=channel_page .

Something has changed for the better. I was doing the exercise smoother from the start and spent about 30 minutes on it. Two things I'm doing different from last year, goosing the throttle around each cone, which I was incapable of doing last year, and then, at the start of each turn around a cone pushing my hips forward by leaning back at the start of each turn, which is forceful enough that I can feel a little change in chain slack. Why pushing forward with my hips helps I do not know. May be it's just a transitional technique that will disappear at some point.

I spent a little time playing with rear traction in slow tight circles. It's getting easier to feel the start of a slip and easier to juggle the balance and throttle issues involved but it's just going to take time to get comfortable with it.

 

[CaptCrash]

http://www.rosswalker.co.uk/tv_sounds/sounds_files_20081223_9801173/sopranos/pull_back.wav

NOT. Going to a training session. Have a great day!

 

[crazybob]

There shouldn't be personal attacks and coarse language put in posts. Those hurt the converstation.

As you have proved, there is no conversation. You are a radio tuned to a garbage channel. Did you get anything, ANYTHING in Enchanter's post? My last post? You have 300 hours. He has 27 years. He has poured his energies, selflessly, into making the training and crash analysis forums the best they can be. Then there is you, singing songs in your head, refuting all the help you asked for. You are worse than scout. Get off BARF and start a blog, since that's obviously more the format you're looking for.

 

[tzrider]

He has poured his energies, selfishly, into making the training and crash analysis forums the best they can be.

I agree with the above, though I don't think the bolded word is the one you meant to use.

 

[crazybob]

I agree with the above, though I don't think the bolded word is the one you meant to use.

Hahahahah *edited*

Thanks

 

[planegray]

There shouldn't be personal attacks and coarse language put in posts. Those hurt the converstation.....................

"Conversation" implies two way communication....From my observations, you are "broadcast" only.

I think your mom's calling you.....go mow the lawn....and try not to run over the geraniums this time.


of course I could be all wrong here...and "converstation" is something I need to learn about

 

[Phaedrus]

Hey Beginner, are you some type of engineer by trade?

 

[beginner]

Hey Beginner, are you some type of engineer by trade?

Philosophy undergrad, ethics was my favorite part of that, then business school. I made my money as an entrepreneur inventor. I didn't invent anything important but manufactured and marketed my stuff. Inventors pick up what they need along the way.

One of the things I learned a little about is pavement (and abrasion on pavement). Pavement is an engineered material that comes in lots of flavors and is given a variety of finished surfaces. Some pavement 101 knowledge that's useful when traction is critical are the concepts of micro texture and macro texture. Learning what those mean and the traction implications can help anticipate problems. Plus, all the different pavement flaws and imperfections have engineering names. Learning the names and what causes the flaws seems worthwhile. It would be similar to the way a pilot learns some meteorology. Below is an example but there's more to learn.

"Pavements provide friction through the macrotexture and microtexture of their surfaces.

Macrotexture refers to the "roughness" of the pavement surface created by the "hills and valleys" between aggregate particles. The aggregate "hills" project above thin water films making contact with the aircraft tire. The aggregate "valleys" provide an escape route for water. Macrotexture displaces water from the tire/pavement interface. Macrotexture is visible to the eye and can be measured.

Microtexture is the fine scale sharpness of the edges and surfaces of the individual aggregate particles. Microtexture may not be visible to the eye but is usually apparent to touch. Microtexture provides points of dry contact between the tire and the aggregate particle."
http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/international/Technical/Pavement/quality/skid.htm

Something I've been wondering about is whether the MSF has a code of conduct for the Rider Coaches. If so it might be worth reviewing that as it applies to situations like motorcycle forums.

It's snowing this morning so no riding today.

 

[Burning1]

When I wrote what's above you didn't specifically agree or disagree and you still don't but here, coincidentally, is some evidence I noticed yesterday from a book you own. Go to page 303 of Cossalter's book on motorcycle dynamics and you'll see he describes counter steering as a technique for leaning the bike, which must be followed by steering in the direction of the turn to start the turn. http://books.google.com/books?id=rJ...lr=&num=100&as_brr=0&as_pt=ALLTYPES#PPA303,M1

In prior chapters, Cossalter goes into great detail about how leaning a bike causes it to turn. While you're technically correct about the physics (counter steering causes leaning, which causes turning,) the actual difference is trivial. You might as well say that turning the wheel on the car doesn't actually turn the car -- it changes the steering geometry, which is what turns the car.

To be honest, it seems like you're raising confirmation bias to an art form.

 

[CaptCrash]

Something I've been wondering about is whether the MSF has a code of conduct for the Rider Coaches. If so it might be worth reviewing that as it applies to situations like motorcycle forums.

Yesterday I spent 5 hours in organized training. (If you have good relationships with other humans they will let you do things like ride with them and give you input on your skills and technique).

Coaches are long suffering and have been here and at every other forum you have spouted your nonsense at. They recognize that you basic overapplication of theory and misunderstanding of application are dangerously flawed.

You need to understand: we're not trying to help you so much any more as we are trying to make sure that we blunt your nonsense so newbie riders don't mistake what you preach for good technique.

Take your belief that you need to "lean back" when doing the offset cone weave. I would suggest that leaning back will UNLOAD the front and potentially create a dangerous situation as you overload the rear and unload the front. With a dual sport tire or knobbie you run the risk of washing the front out if you lean back too much. A neutral or even forward bias position would probably be better.

Likewise, practicing swerving will help with the offset cone weave if you're attempting to do it at a higher speed. Swerve practice will help you get comfortable with the countersteering and active handlebar you'll need to do the weave at higher speeds. Odds are you're fighting the bike through a higher speed weave because you reeeeeeally need to countersteer more as the speeds go up. You want to lean back because you're feeling the front get active and 'bite' and dig in and that frightens you. You're a little frightened as any other sane, normal human would be--the front digging in and starting to use up traction scares you a little--good, you should be aware of it. Swerve practice will help make you more comfortable with that countersteer/load feeling.

Rolling resistance is a big issue for you as well. I would suggest that if you REALLY want to feel changes in rolling resistance you'll go to your parking lot and ride an offset weave with the tire at a normal psi. THEN lower it to 6 pounds. Ride it again. The rolling resistance will be MUCH higher. Then, using a bicycle pump you can bungee on the back, pump your pressure up to say...40? Try it again. MUCH lower rolling resistance, the steering will be wildy different so be careful. Next? Well, what does the manufacturer recommend. Try it.

Newbs: As always, professional training is better than untrained, confused and misappllied personal guessing. If you want to learn to ride, take a course, find a mentor, read and watch quality material.

Newbs:anyone who calls the handlebar the "steering bar" ISN'T an instructor and probably is going to try and baflle you with bullshit so you may want to be very very careful when looking at thier posts.

 

[beginner]

In prior chapters, Cossalter goes into great detail about how leaning a bike causes it to turn.

Please provide one quotation from the book that says leaning causes turning.

While you're technically correct about the physics (counter steering causes leaning, which causes turning,) the actual difference is trivial.

What I mean to say is counter steering only causes leaning. Turning the wheel in the direction of the lean causes the lean to stabilize and also causes the bike to turn. This is not a trivial fine point for me. The push-right-go-right coaching advice, by itself, makes it harder to understand the cause and effect, which is important to improve confidence in the technique. Misunderstanding the difference between what causes leaning and what causes turning had me overlooking the role of shifting upper body weight to influence lean angle. When I finally got a grip on that, at 12 weeks, my ability to maneuver the bike was transformed. It was a revelation.

 

[beginner]

Take your belief that you need to "lean back" when doing the offset cone weave. I would suggest that leaning back will UNLOAD the front and potentially create a dangerous situation as you overload the rear and unload the front. With a dual sport tire or knobbie you run the risk of washing the front out if you lean back too much. A neutral or even forward bias position would probably be better.

And not long ago I would have said the same but recent experience in practice has me experimenting with more possibilities. Regardless of what seems right in theory, when I do the counter intuitive thing, push my hips forward by leaning back, and keep my arms extended in the turn, slow speed turning accuracy improves noticably. I don't understand why, I'm not drawing any conclusions, I'll just explore it more. Sometimes I have "techniques" that turn out to be transitional, meaning they don't stick around because they are ultimately unnecessary or inefficient. Another example of that is pusing down on a peg. Once I understood that peg pushing only shifts upper body weight I found there are other, more efficient ways to do that for many situations.

Likewise, practicing swerving will help with the offset cone weave if you're attempting to do it at a higher speed. Swerve practice will help you get comfortable with the countersteering and active handlebar you'll need to do the weave at higher speeds.

This morning I'm thinking the difference between this year and last year is the speed and ease of leaning the bike side to side. Improving that might be the key to a smoother cone weave. The maneuver is fun again so I'll practice it a couple times a week.

Rolling resistance is a big issue for you as well. I would suggest that if you REALLY want to feel changes in rolling resistance you'll go to your parking lot and ride an offset weave with the tire at a normal psi. THEN lower it to 6 pounds. Ride it again. The rolling resistance will be MUCH higher. Then, using a bicycle pump you can bungee on the back, pump your pressure up to say...40? Try it again. MUCH lower rolling resistance, the steering will be wildy different so be careful. Next? Well, what does the manufacturer recommend. Try it.

When I changed the tires from Dunlop off road knobbies to the Kenda dual sport tires I found a HUGE difference in rolling resistance. That difference is why I'm sticking with the Kenda's for now. I did add a couple pounds to the Kenda rear several days ago to reduce traction slightly, which makes it a bit easier to slip the rear. I still run pressures in those tires on the low side.

Newbs: As always, professional training is better than untrained, confused and misappllied personal guessing. If you want to learn to ride, take a course, find a mentor, read and watch quality material.

You never miss a chance to plug the product, fine, but after a course there is still a lot to learn for the sake of enjoyment and a prudent safety margin. A lot of that learning, most of it, needs to come from drills and exercises.

Newbs:anyone who calls the handlebar the "steering bar" ISN'T an instructor and probably is going to try and baflle you with bullshit so you may want to be very very careful when looking at thier posts.

I like the term steering bar. Everybody knows what I'm talking about. If you try to eliminate the possibility of ever being wrong you make it impossible to think. Thinking is a good companion to motorcycle riding.

You need to understand: we're not trying to help you so much any more as we are trying to make sure that we blunt your nonsense so newbie riders don't mistake what you preach for good technique.

This is the classic Crash response which might as well read, "Heratic! Shield the ears of the newbies in our flock, those vulnerable souls whose ignorance makes them all too easily led astray. Protect them and keep them on the righteous path of motorcycle orthodoxy. Glory Hyabusa!"

 

[planegray]

...........What I mean to say is .........

beginner;

What part of "Stop" do you not understand ?

You purport to be helping "beginners" with your "unique" ability but in fact you are FAR more interested in seeing your dribble placed in a highly visible location. Your intent is clearly to garner attention and validation.

When you use phrases (such at the one I quoted above) to avoid taking responsibility for your erroneous dribble, it becomes clear that "helping" other people( or even yourself ) learn how to ride motorcycles is not your intent.

Please cease and desist with this useless dribble, you are acting more like a postwhore than someone who is seeking to improve motorcycle safety.

 

[CaptCrash]

This is the classic Crash response which might as well read, "Heratic! Shield the ears of the newbies in our flock, those vulnerable souls whose ignorance makes them all too easily led astray. Protect them and keep them on the righteous path of motorcycle orthodoxy. Glory Hyabusa!"

No, we just know that skilled and informed trainers say things like:

"Countersteering becomes pronounced at speed about 15 miles an hour. Once you're going 40, a gentle push on the inside grip will dramatically turn the motorcycle."

You--on the other hand have never experienced countersteering at speed because you've never gone more than 30mph (by your own admission). A motorcycle, at speed, at lean, will react quite pleasantly to countersteering WITHOUT turning the 'steering bar' in the direction of the turn. A simple press will change lanes or direct...

But you've never experienced that. So it doesn't exist.

You're not a heretic, you're an overzealous beginner, who desperately wants to feel in control of the situation. That's OK! You're human. Try some swerves at 15 to 20. (A speedometer would be a good addition to your bike so you can get instant confirmation of your speed. Try www.thumpertalk.com and someone should be able to point you to a good one for your bike). GPS is nice but it only tells you what you did, you should know what you're doing...

 

[Kornholio]

Therefore....

Enough said. :|

 

[Razel]

Something I've been wondering about is whether the MSF has a code of conduct for the Rider Coaches. If so it might be worth reviewing that as it applies to situations like motorcycle forums.

What they have most likely applies to the MSF range and class. Any coach going to a hockey game wouldn't be held to the MSF code of conduct. That should be obvious to you.

However, you need to know that baiting is a TOS violation here.

 

[planegray]

Therefore....

Enough said. :|

 

[Razel]

Please cease and desist with this useless dribble, you are acting more like a postwhore than someone who is seeking to improve motorcycle safety.

Postwhore thread? Is there such a thing???

 

[cprbusa]

What they have most likely applies to the MSF range and class. Any coach going to a hockey game wouldn't be held to the MSF code of conduct. That should be obvious to you.

However, you need to know that baiting is a TOS violation here.[/Q


According to the Rider Coach Guide, section II, Course Materials and Administration, Page 4, Rider Coaches-number 12:

Conduct themselves in a professional manner that includes: appearence, and appropriate language exhibiting poistive verbal and written messages, positive interaction with others that is free from intimidation or threat, consistent with the best interest of MSF and its mission.

 

[cprbusa]

And this is the "Rules of Professional Conduct" all rider coaches sign in agreement of said rules.