Smart gun technology: The societal risk, the societal gain

[NorCalAthlete]

i understand that. you should have to wait for firearm purchases though.

See previous.

edit - to address a couple other things you bring up ([1]waiting periods, [2]suicide prevention material, [3]training for gun shop employees):
1. IF it's your first firearm, and you're not purchasing it as an urgent need for self defense due to a restraining order or something, I could maybe see waiting periods having an effect. However, while the actual act may come soon after a purchase, the path to being suicidal is not sudden nor impulsive. So I'm not sure how much effect a waiting period would actually have on suicide rates. It's a bandaid solution, reactive rather than preventative.

2. Sure, why not. Easy enough to do, might save a couple lives here and there, non-intrusive, etc. I'm ok with that.

3. Shouldn't be too hard to implement, but I'd be cautious on mandating it or how much leeway there'd be. I'd really rather not have a bunch of pseudo-counselors trying to analyze everyone.

 

[asthmodeus]

See previous.

you forgot to highlight all pertinent blather..

 

[NorCalAthlete]

Feel free to elaborate and contribute to the discussion beyond sniping. Beyond "guns is fer killin", can you explain why you support waiting periods and how effective you think they'd be in preventing suicide?

 

[clutchslip]

Well, sure. But when satire is sooooo close to being mistaken as truth, probably should make a point to not mislead people. I'd like to think the satire as being ridiculously exaggerated to the point of being funny, but sadly, I could foresee this as being reality at some point.

If it is not plausible is it satire? I laughed as soon as I read it. My personal humor is so straight faced that the sarcasm is only noticed by the most discerning of Buster Keaton fans.

The fact that this moron was mayor and is Lt. Governor is already past any satire that I would imagine at my demented age. And with the current politics in California, he is set to bring his retarded agenda to the Governor's office, next time around. He can slip right into Jerry's shorts and they will fit just fine, with Jerry still in them, no less. So, yeah, guns that only fire while eating vegan tamales is quite possible in the future.

 

[NorCalAthlete]

This kinda crap is why it seems entirely plausible that Newsom would say something like that:

[youtube]iJmFEv6BHM0[/youtube]

 

[asthmodeus]

Feel free to elaborate and contribute to the discussion beyond sniping. Beyond "guns is fer killin", can you explain why you support waiting periods and how effective you think they'd be in preventing suicide?

no, i support suicide, just not by ballistic means. too messy for those left behind and likely a poorly thought out decision in most cases. suicide should be planned and implemented properly.

regardless, i see what you did there even if you don't in your campaign for moderator wannabee of the year

 

[NorCalAthlete]

 

[GiorgioFurioso]

Feel free to elaborate and contribute to the discussion beyond sniping. Beyond "guns is fer killin", can you explain why you support waiting periods and how effective you think they'd be in preventing suicide?

I would have assumed that the waiting period reduced all forms of rash actions, including homicides, robberies, and suicides. But according to this, studies suggest that suicide is in fact the only thing that is reduced by having waiting periods:

No statistical evidence that a waiting period for handgun purchases reduces violence, lawmaker says

I was surprised.

 

[bojangle]

I would have assumed that the waiting period reduced all forms of rash actions, including homicides, robberies, and suicides. But according to this, studies suggest that suicide is in fact the only thing that is reduced by having waiting periods:

No statistical evidence that a waiting period for handgun purchases reduces violence, lawmaker says

I was surprised.

Robbers and murderers generally don't get their guns at the gun store. That's probably why. While suicide crosses all walks of life. Many otherwise law abiding people wouldn't know where to illegally acquire a gun on the street, so their option is limited to an authorized gun dealer.

Even at that, a waiting period doesn't really accomplish anything for those who already own guns.

EDIT: And, actually, the study show NO decrease in overall suicide rates. Just firearm suicide rates. So, basically, who cares about that? It is meaningless. Take away a gun option and people will seek out other means.

From the article.

A study done by one researcher from Georgetown University and one from Duke University that was published in the Journal of the American Medical Association in 2000 examined the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act, a 1994 federal law that established a nationwide waiting period and background check for handgun sales. (The waiting period provision was later removed.)

The study concluded that the law’s waiting period was associated with reductions in the firearm suicide rate for people age 55 and older, but not associated with reductions in homicide rates or overall suicide rates.

 

[GiorgioFurioso]

And, actually, the study show NO decrease in overall suicide rates. Just firearm suicide rates. So, basically, who caresabot that? It is meaningless. Take away a gun option and people will seek out other means.

True enough, but if a family member tried to off themselves, I'd rather they used pills and alcohol, because they'd have a better chance of surviving, followed by re-evaluating their life, maybe doing better as a result, etc.

edit: also, I'd support an age-specific waiting period, though I'm sure the NRA would go bonkers.

 

[carries an axe]

If they overturned the crazy nonsense laws I would consider voting something other than no on any and all new firearms legislation.

Supressors seem to be gaining some traction as a public health/noise pollution issue.

 

[bojangle]

True enough, but if a family member tried to off themselves, I'd rather they used pills and alcohol, because they'd have a better chance of surviving, followed by re-evaluating their life, maybe doing better as a result, etc.

edit: also, I'd support an age-specific waiting period, though I'm sure the NRA would go bonkers.

Well, like I wrote in post 52, I have quite a bit of professional experience dealing with suicide attempted suicide, and suicidal states of mind.

Stuff like pills and alcohol aren't real attempts to begin with. They ARE cries for help that result in some sort of intervention. Those people will hopefully get the help they need.

Those who would turn to firearms to kill themselves would simply turn to another equally effective means. That's why the study supported no overall decrease in suicides. Guns may be an easier option for some, but if they are going to go through with it not much will stop it.

Guns and pills are two different states of mind. Pills/alcohol/wrist & arm cutting fall more into the cry for help. There will usually be accompanying phone calls and/or text messages that will end up summoning the police. Often we will get these suicidal statements without any overt acts. So overt acts take things up a notch, but they don't really want to go through with it, but they are in a bad state and just don't care anymore. Someone who would use a gun for suicide probably doesn't fall into that category.

 

[ScarySpikes]

Huh? I crashed my GSXR 600, got out of the ER at 0100, and was at the dealership at 0900. Swiped my credit card and rode home on a brand new GSXR 750.

I sold my Husky 630 at 1700 on a Saturday, and drove home an FZ09 Sunday at noon. The only waiting I've ever needed to do for new vehicles was for the dealership / seller to sign paperwork. I bought a new laptop online and it was delivered to my house literally less than an hour later.

Where are you getting your information from? Seriously. In this day and age of Amazon Prime and same day delivery....it's a bit worrisome that you're this unaware / ignorant of things.

Well, glad to be corrected with this, I've only bought one bike after all.
WTF was my dealer doing taking 3 days to 'prep' my (used) 650...

That being said, I've still had to wait a week or more for specific parts that aren't on amazon to come in. had to wait for the DMV to process paperwork and other things. Whatever. I don't think a 10 day waiting period for a firearm (outside of specific cases like restraining orders, etc.) is all that arduous. Maybe have a stipulation that the shop can let you test out your gun if they have a gun range within the shop or something.

 

[russ69]

...I don't think a 10 day waiting period for a firearm (outside of specific cases like restraining orders, etc.) is all that arduous...

Maybe not for the first one, but over and over again for 40 years. Do you know how much gas I wasted driving to distant gun stores for the unnecessary second time? Do you know how much manpower is wasted making a simple transaction a two stage process? Millions of transactions a year? Can you show me the benefit in this?

 

[byke]

Maybe not for the first one, but over and over again for 40 years. Do you know how much gas I wasted driving to distant gun stores for the unnecessary second time? Do you know how much manpower is wasted making a simple transaction a two stage process? Millions of transactions a year? Can you show me the benefit in this?

Which is why there should be a test/license program and you're free to do whatever after that. No wait, no checks, no record of what you buy, etc.

 

[ScarySpikes]

Maybe not for the first one, but over and over again for 40 years. Do you know how much gas I wasted driving to distant gun stores for the unnecessary second time? Do you know how much manpower is wasted making a simple transaction a two stage process? Millions of transactions a year? Can you show me the benefit in this?

I think splitting the difference to no waiting periods after the first year of gun ownership would be fine.

 

[MysterYvil]

Well, glad to be corrected with this, I've only bought one bike after all.
WTF was my dealer doing taking 3 days to 'prep' my (used) 650...

That being said, I've still had to wait a week or more for specific parts that aren't on amazon to come in. had to wait for the DMV to process paperwork and other things. Whatever. I don't think a 10 day waiting period for a firearm (outside of specific cases like restraining orders, etc.) is all that arduous. Maybe have a stipulation that the shop can let you test out your gun if they have a gun range within the shop or something.

Your waiting periods were not government mandated for the "greater good," they were simply you choosing to opt for slower shipping. Apples to oranges...

And can anyone who supports the waiting period explain how it is pertinent to those who have already legally purchased a firearm?

Or for that matter, why multiple purchases should be limited and/or regulated, given that straw buying and selling is already illegal (if woefully unenforced)?

 

[Ridley]

Which is why there should be a test/license program and you're free to do whatever after that. No wait, no checks, no record of what you buy, etc.

But in California we already have to take a stupid test. And wait 10 days to receive our second, third , fourth ... firearm. I think the 10 day wait is reasonable for the first one after that, beyond stupid waste of time and resources.

 

[ScarySpikes]

Your waiting periods were not government mandated for the "greater good," they were simply you choosing to opt for slower shipping. Apples to oranges...

And can anyone who supports the waiting period explain how it is pertinent to those who have already legally purchased a firearm?

Or for that matter, why multiple purchases should be limited and/or regulated, given that straw buying and selling is already illegal (if woefully unenforced)?

Maybe because laws against straw man purchasing are woefully unenforced?

 

[NorCalAthlete]

Which is why there should be a test/license program and you're free to do whatever after that. No wait, no checks, no record of what you buy, etc.

I think I'd actually probably be ok with that, depending on implementation.

In regards to 10 days as a length for a waiting period...ehhhh. Waiting periods were originally passed as a "we need more time to evaluate whether or not this person's a criminal! We don't want restricted people getting firearms!" Then when systems improved and background checks could be conducted instantly is when it was re-defined as a "cooling off" period. I don't see it making much difference one way or another whether it's 48 hours or 10 days, aside from when it fits into your schedule to pick up the gun. What I DON'T like is shops that charge you storage fees after the 10th day, or insist on making it 11 days "just to be sure you clear the time frame", etc.

Either make it 24-48 hours, where you have ample time to go sleep on something but can still say, purchase the gun on Friday and pick it up on Sunday, or make it 6-7 days (weekend to weekend) where it'll fit into most people's schedules as you generally have the same days off from week to week. And IF you're going to insist on waiting periods at all, it should only apply to first time purchasers who have no other access to firearms. So if you use firearms at your job, have access to them at your job or at home, and can prove / demonstrate such, then cash & carry for you. For example, a waiting period doesn't mean a damn thing for a 22 year old who lives with his dad and has access to 20+ firearms if that 22 year old wants to do something with the gun. I'm sure there's plenty of edge cases, but you shouldn't make law / policy around edge cases only.