Some things to ponder about Frong's tagedy

[Holeshot]

Yeah, I had 5 trackdays before NRS. I'm sure it's not a good example to set. Not saying I learned fast, just that I did learn that first year without crashing my brains out. Point being: one doesn't need to crash to learn speed.

 

[Gary J]

5 diff. people can run the same laptime 5 different ways.

Very good point Robert!

I've had just such an occasion happen at the track (Sears Point), where I was riding a 400'cc machine (Kawi, ZXR-400). My lap times that day were very close to the lap times that another fairly skilled trackday rider was doing, on his Yamaha R1. Upon seeing me on track in one session, he decided to "hook-up" with me from behind (I didn't know at the time he was there).

For the 400'cc machine to be turning similar lap times, the numerical speed at which the ZXR was traveling into..... through......and out of the corners ......... was MUCH higher than what the R1 pilot had been doing while netting those same lap times. The result? Mid-way through the first lap behind me, he tried to navigate into/through/out-of "The Chicane" (the previously used AFM "Turn 12") at the same pace, and found him and the R1 sliding down the pavement.

Later when the events became known to me (I had no idea he was behind me, or had crashed), and we discussed the sequence that had led up to the crash ..... his comments were the following:

1. He'd seen that he was going about the same laptime pace as me, and thought he'd tag along for fun.

2. He realized (after-the-fact) that he had neglected at the time of the incident, to take into consideration the "different ways in which different bikes/riders achieve the same lap times".

He said it'd dawned on him, after he'd gotten up from the crash, that the cornering speeds that the 60HP, 400'cc machine must have been carrying, to do the same lap times as his R1, would have been much greater than the speeds he'd previously done in those same turns ....... hence the crash.

So as Robert so accurately stated .........

There's different ways to achieve a specific laptime around a track. One that's done with smoothness, consistency, and control ........ is the one that I believe should be the goal for all riders to shoot for ..... rather than that "one flying lap" approach that seems to be more and more prevalent lately at trackdays .... where on-board lap timers abound on even "C" Group rider's bikes!

Gary J

 

[JnglstTICAL]

However, a few first year racers drop to the 2:00 mark or slightly above, on a regular occurance.

Yes, they can. If enough time and though is spent on actually learning about the track, riding, and more importantly, your bike, its suspension and what it does, this can be accomplished. Plain and simple, I think fr0ng got a little too far ahead of him self. Sure, you may be able to pop off a few 'hot' 2:12 laps, but could you save it from a pucker moment? Or were you knowledgable enough to get your self out of the situation like it was second hand nature, or better yet, avoid it totally...? I'm sure this is a lesson very hard learned, but only time will tell if the lesson was actually learned, of if it was just taught...

 

[staRang]

Very good point Robert!

I've had just such an occasion happen at the track (Sears Point), where I was riding a 400'cc machine (Kawi, ZXR-400). My lap times that day were very close to the lap times that another fairly skilled trackday rider was doing, on his Yamaha R1. Upon seeing me on track in one session, he decided to "hook-up" with me from behind (I didn't know at the time he was there).

For the 400'cc machine to be turning similar lap times, the numerical speed at which the ZXR was traveling into..... through......and out of the corners ......... was MUCH higher than what the R1 pilot had been doing while netting those same lap times. The result? Mid-way through the first lap behind me, he tried to navigate into/through/out-of "The Chicane" (the previously used AFM "Turn 12") at the same pace, and found him and the R1 sliding down the pavement.

Later when the events became known to me (I had no idea he was behind me, or had crashed), and we discussed the sequence that had led up to the crash ..... his comments were the following:

1. He'd seen that he was going about the same laptime pace as me, and thought he'd tag along for fun.

2. He realized (after-the-fact) that he had neglected at the time of the incident, to take into consideration the "different ways in which different bikes/riders achieve the same lap times".

He said it'd dawned on him, after he'd gotten up from the crash, that the cornering speeds that the 60HP, 400'cc machine must have been carrying, to do the same lap times as his R1, would have been much greater than the speeds he'd previously done in those same turns ....... hence the crash.

So as Robert so accurately stated .........

There's different ways to achieve a specific laptime around a track. One that's done with smoothness, consistency, and control ........ is the one that I believe should be the goal for all riders to shoot for ..... rather than that "one flying lap" approach that seems to be more and more prevalent lately at trackdays .... where on-board lap timers abound on even "C" Group rider's bikes!

Gary J

On a modern 600cc sportbike, at a 2:15 pace (@ T-Hill), there's no way anyone should be entering any turn too hot.

 

[John]

John, from your post about what happened sounds like "red mist." The "A" rider had been towing you guys around but it seemed like he passed you guys up and perhaps was about to go for some hot laps. I don't think frong realized that and figured he should be able to keep up since he was being towed the whole session. Frong went it there to keep the pace but didn't realize that that other guy was trying to check out...the rest we all know.

Another possibility is that the A rider might as been running around 2:15, but how was he getting those 2:15's? Was he flying into corners and then checking up on the exit? Being easy on the braking? Checking up on the straights? 5 diff. people can run the same laptime 5 different ways.

No he wasn't going for some hotlaps, to clarify, we did one warm up lap with him behind us, and then the start of the 2nd lap is when we took off and that's the lap I believe Sami crashed on...as for the rest of the 2:15s, no he wasn't braking and checking up, etc...he was riding smooth 2:15s.

 

[kevo]

Yo, Kevo - How are you holdin' up?

The low-grade pain is gone and has turned into aches. Now the bruises are visible. I feel like the red-headed step child.

 

[John]

On a modern 600cc sportbike, at a 2:15 pace (@ T-Hill), there's no way anyone should be entering any turn too hot.

I agree, that was the first lap we started going fast after warmup, so only God knows how fast Sami would have been riding after that lap, he didn't get a chance to find out.

I made it through the turn, and proceeded to keep the pace at 2:15, I didn't want to go through that turn that hot again, so it kept the rest of the session at the 2:15 pace for me.

Had we both made the turn smoothly and problem free we probably would have gone through the rest of the session faster...but no way was that session near "over my head", that first turn was, which obviously makes it clear that we entered it way over our heads and too hot. It's just too bad it cost him his crash

 

[staRang]

Whatever the case may be... hope fr0ngster heals up quick.

 

[cycledrummer]

With all due respect..... I did some research....fr0ng (Sami) had been riding for a year total and his first trackdays were this year... not a good combo for hopping into the A group.

some have said...it could happen to anybody. Oh really? Shit I better stop riding right now if a crash like this could 'just happen'.

I don't know all the details. Would need to hear it from Sami himself. Hope he remembers. Oh, heal up well.

 

[fr0ng]

I dont remember what happend but I NEVER ride over my ability. At Keigwins school I was getting towed and the instructor was going a little faster than I liked so I hung back and waited for HIM to slow down.

I really want to remember what happend, but until I do, lets stop with the bs. Thanks.

 

[KIDRR]

With all due respect..... I did some research....fr0ng (Sami) had been riding for a year total and his first trackdays were this year... not a good combo for hopping into the A group.

some have said...it could happen to anybody. Oh really? Shit I better stop riding right now if a crash like this could 'just happen'.

.

This coming from a guy who rides a '04 R1

 

[Holeshot]

? Siglin rides an 04' R1...

 

[cycledrummer]

KIDDRR,
I would say if a person has crashed a lot, they may be a crappy rider or they just don't care about their bike or body. They've probably got money coming out their ass to pay for a new bike.

 

[cycledrummer]

fr0ng,
I think you just gave the circumstances away... the bike was shaking badly and sending you wide out of several turns... kind of sounds like time to pit a bike to me. then again, I have no track experience.

 

[KIDRR]

I have no track experience.

Have fun posing next to your brand new R1, you have no room to talk

 

[Enchanter]

I dont remember what happend but I NEVER ride over my ability.

So what are you saying here? The crash could not have been avoided? There was a mechanical failure of your motorcycle? (the way you described the handling of the bike, was NOT a failure).

Every one of your crashes/falls/incidents/mishaps you have described on barf has been directly linked to your ability/inability/judgement. Each of those threads has always ended up the same, 'it wasn't my fault' attitude. Tell me, just who forced you out onto the track with an ill-handling motorcycle? Who made that call? If it was you, then you showed poor judgement in attempting to ride around a handling problem. The crash is an indication that you were riding over your ability. Sure, maybe nobody could have been able to handle the bike at that exact moment in time, but if that was the case, and they attempted to ride it anyway, then they too would have been riding beyond their ability.

I have never met you dude, but all of what I read here on barf, and everyone I talk to that has spoken with you all come away with the same opinion...you do not take responsibility for your actions. If you are of the opinion that your crashes were out of your control, then what have you learned? If you couldn't have stopped them from happening at the time, and they were not your fault, then how will you ever stop them from happening again (and again). You are in control of the machine frong, you twist the grip, you choose the speed and lean angle. You are responsible.

I generally do not read your posts dude (ignore list), but this time I began to read them to see how you were doing and see if I could get a 'feel' for your attitude after your (additional) crash. It shaocked me that here you are/were, in a life threatening situation, brought about by your own hand, and you still deny responsibility.

 

[cycledrummer]

KIDDRR,
Don't get personal buddy. I doesn't really matter whether I've been on a racetrack or not, it's all riding. I've owned 6 bikes, have ridden 40,000+ miles and have crashed once on Hwy 9.

But with your response, I'm out of this thread now.

KIDDRR seems to be an alias for fr0ng.

 

[juicedaddy]

I dont remember what happend but I NEVER ride over my ability.

You've been riding over your ability ever since you first straddled a motorcycle, dude. I can't believe, that after all this, you still haven't learned that.

 

[RickyHayden]

I dont remember what happend but I NEVER ride over my ability. At Keigwins school I was getting towed and the instructor was going a little faster than I liked so I hung back and waited for HIM to slow down.

I really want to remember what happend, but until I do, lets stop with the bs. Thanks.

Sorry Bro...but it makes absolutley no sense to say something like that after you have crashed by "Blowing a Turn"

 

[John]

KIDDRR,
Don't get personal buddy. I doesn't really matter whether I've been on a racetrack or not, it's all riding. I've owned 6 bikes, have ridden 40,000+ miles and have crashed once on Hwy 9.

But with your response, I'm out of this thread now.

KIDDRR seems to be an alias for fr0ng.

KIDRR is not fr0ng. hahaha

As for judging a person's skill or "having money coming out of his ass" this isn't the case, and you're judging way prematurely.

Why accuse someone of the cause of a crash if he doesn't even remember it right now? Damn...

Cycledrummer, go out to the track sometime if you have 40k+ miles under your belt. I have 20k miles under my belt...freeway miles, doesn't make me a better street rider. Track is a whole different story. I'd love to chop it up with you on your R1. But don't judge people ahead of time, especially with b.s. comments like assuming someone just has a chunk of money so they crash.