Some things to ponder about Frong's tagedy

[m_asim]

Since people are so passionate about things that go bad on a track here, a question for y'all: How to stay upright when you go off the track? How to slow the bike down? How to minimize the damage? any takers?

 

[luke]

Get well soon sami!

I'm in the same boat as my man sami. In about a year of riding I've dropped my lap times hugely. From a number of people who I respect i've been told I'm running a sub 2:10 at t-hill(harpo). I don't think of this as very fast its just for reference. I have tried to educate myself from as many sources asI have time to.

So anyways even after lots of improvement last summer I crashed at infineon attempting to pass someone. I got back on the bike this febuary and have been getting up to my previous pace. .

I had the best time of my life getting faster and faster last weekend, but I had a few close calls. I slid my whole bike at the end of 2 and an instructor said he saw me sliding my rear on the exit of 15 as well. I had gary j help me set my sag because suspension is quite a mystery to me right now.(but I'm trying!)
The problem went away and I continued to go faster consistantly.

I consider myself the weak link so I was trying to work around the hurdles i was finding. It was my first time on a litre bike on the track so that could be part of it. In my riding experience I've hit false neutrals and run off track, I've hit false neutrals and stayed on track. I've slid my bike, never felt like "Wow this is great" But never let go. I kinda thought this was all part of the learning process. This thread kinda scares me because now I'm starting to think I'm way over my head and a danger to everyone.

I'm going to do what I feel Like anyway obviously, Everyone does. I havn't felt way over my head yet, I've come into corners too hot and overbreaked some but I think thats natural. Mainly I just want to see if you all think this mirrors jimi's situation. I guess every aspireing fast rider who reads these heated threads stops and goes"shit, is that me?"
I guess we all just take this forum to seriously. Keep riding and hopefully I'll see you all at the track.(hopefully as I pass you) (but well within my limit obviously)

-Luke

 

[luke]

I don't know if it is the right way but when I went off at turn nine last year I braked until I left pavement, very lightly braked on the dirt, puckerd my asshole as I caught air over the mound on the hill and then hung on as I coasted to a halt. I then checked my bike for major problems since I wasnt in a runoff area and got permission from the tower to reenter the track. Oh and I know I just ran off to where I was but I let the bike idle me a ways out of the way.

 

[fubar929]

Since people are so passionate about things that go bad on a track here, a question for y'all: How to stay upright when you go off the track? How to slow the bike down? How to minimize the damage? any takers?

1) Stay loose
2) Rear brake only, and shut off the throttle if you haven't already
3) Stay loose
4) Flex your legs/stand on the pegs; you need some "leg suspension" to cushion the bumps and dips
5) Stay loose
6) Don't steer; just go straight and bleed off speed
7) Stay loose
8) Stay with the bike! Sticking a foot out, dirt track style, is just going to result in broken bones. Feet on the pegs, hands on the bars, until the bike stops or goes down
9) Stay loose...

 

[kevo]

No, they can't. I've worked with Lance Keigwin for a number of years. It's normal for someone to go from a 2:30-2:45 to 2:20s over the course of a year. People who drop into the 2:10s invariably crash, and crash big. I've yet to see someone drop into 2:10s their first year and not fuck themselves up badly, either at the track or on the street...

The problem is: natural skill, fearlessness, and a willingness to decrease your safety margin will give you big gains in your lap times, but that does not mean that you actually know how to ride a motorcycle. When you get too fast too quick, you may know how to operate the bike when everything is going your way, but when the shit hits the fan? Sorry, my friend, but it's a helicopter flight to Chico for you...

Chances are, guys like this are more concerned with grinding through their knee pucks or seeing a smaller number on their lap timer that they never learn: what to do when you run off into the dirt, what to do after you've recovered a tankslapper, how to master that instinctive reaction to grab a handful of front brake, what to do when the rear wheel slides, what to do when the front wheel pushes, what do do when your brakes fail, etc.

Some of this stuff you learn by sitting around in the paddock listening to more experienced riders shoot the shit. Some of it you learn by scaring yourself is small increments while making small improvements in your laptimes. Guys with lots of natural talent don't experience these small mistakes! They drop into the 2:10s, thinking they're hot shit, then make a medium to large mistake and don't have the skills or instincts to recover it.

At least that's what I've seen over the past 3-4 years... Too fast, too quick = Big Crash. Believe it!

Id say 2:05 on an RR or the like--It should also be mentioned that NOT crashing whilst reaching these goals probably a better indicator than actually reaching them, why??
1) The more you ride the more "weird" things you get to deal with, my 929 used to "miss" the downshift (ie finding a false neutral) to 4th entering T1---not crashing thru this was a "right of passage"
1.5) You learn NOT to fixate on crashing bikes
2) You get used to reacting faster at these speeds
3) You learn to get comfortable w/wheelspin
4) You learn the value of slow in---fast out as a "safer" way to reduce times
5) MOST IMPORTATANT:: You learn how important being smooth is under all circumstances

If someone loses it on the exit of T1--I am thinking that he probably "over-cooked" his entrance/apex speed or braked and stood up the bike--or ran out of track--or some combination of these-4) would have helped lesson the impact of both of these

Now finally this is mere speculation, NOT blame as I wasnt there or riding the bike---maybe something for new guys to think about I am sure Sammi will have some input at some time.

I hope for a continued speedy recovery

I'm a firm believer in too fast too soon. I've learned alot in being slow. One of the most important things I have learned is that head-shake is bad for brakes especially coming out of T9. (Thanks Jason)

Every little unforseen thing that has happened at a 2:25 - 2:30 pace was manageable. It would have definitely caught me by surprise with no solutions at a faster pace.

Running wide on exits - too early of an apex & suspension set up.
Rear tire slipping @ Laguna - cold tires
Rear tire slipping @ T9 T-hill - Too hard of a drive while leaned over
Fighting bike in T2 @ T-hill - Too much bar input, not relaxed enough

The list goes on. After each incident, I try to figure out why it happened. I go back out and try to correct it. Going to Novice School helped me understand some of these things better. Had these things happened at a 2:10 pace, I would not have had the experience to deal with them properly. Even crashing and sliding at 60 mph was manageable. It gave me experience when doing the same at 90mph.

John, Sami may have been comfortable at a 2:15. He may even have been comfortable at a 2:00 pace without breaking a sweat. But how much experience did he have at that pace? As Trackho said, the more you ride the more "weird things" happen. The same can be said about increased speed. How many times has he had a "brake check" while leaned over @ 100 mph? How many times has he gone off track and ridden in the dirt?

I was following Wicked Wahine at about 12" off her tail one time. She mis-shifted and her rear locked up. This happened at 60 mph. I was able to deal with it. That experience at 60 mph, helped me to better deal with a similar situation at 90 mph. Had the 90 mph situation happend first, I wouldn't have had the practice. Vince and Christy would probably have 2 R6s right now.

I think it is great that Sami(and yourself) was making such impressive improvements. However, I admit that I was concerned about a big crash as his lap times kept getting better, without staying static even for a few trackdays.

Whether you were trying to improve your lap times or not, something happened that he wasn't able to deal with at that speed/pace even though he was comfortable. The thing here is this: Both of you were comfortable at that pace. But that was a pace without any hurdles. When encountering those hurdles, things didn't work out well. You came out of the situation in much better shape because you did not progress as fast. You put in the time at a slower pace to be able to deal with the hurdle.

You might consider me a fr0ng hater. I don't think I am. So take this FWIW. I'm not asking you to agree with me. Just consider this might be a possibility.

Rob's statements might be falling on deaf ears because of his past interactions with Sami. (seems to be similar to the point he was making.) But Holeshot, fubar, and Trackho are all fast guys that got to where they are somehow. If nothing else, at least take their advice in to consideration.

 

[staRang]

If you're not riding at 100%, how can you enter a turn "too hot"?

I'm running the same pace, you two are, and I know if I back down to 2:20's, my entry speed is really slow... Grabbing a fist full of throttle, followed by a first full of brake - is not the quickest way to get fast...


Yo, Kevo - How are you holdin' up?

 

[Ace of Hearts]

Ace of Hearts you have no idea our standard pace, I was clearing 2:12 the whole day, I wasn't worried about setting records, nor was I worried about doing a 2:15 or slower session. When we got towed around by an A group rider we WEREN'T GOING A GROUP PACE. how many times do I have to say that to get it clear to you guys??? We ran 2:15s that ENTIRE session, how the hell is that even close to A group pace??

Sigh..... this activity is by nature a pissing contest, and I try to be a big boy about it and provide my thoughts about something that can be applied to many, as it is basically impossible for me to apply it to a singular incident from behind a monitor.

But anyway, I have been racing 4 years now, and am starting to see the trend of racers and track guys start to unveil themselves.

In general it seems there are far more entering this activity for the social value and bragging rights within their own little circle of friends. This isolationist mentality gets defensive when commentary from outside the circle solicited or not is unflattering to the listener.

Through all the bull shit being written on this thread and throughout the Board in its entirety there are small veins of gold in regards to information being shared by more veteran riders.

If you are unable to disseminate form the harsh bullshit and the few strains of useful sentences of information then you are not walking away from this thread with any benefit to begin with and may as well not be posting in the first place.

I am very confident my survivability skills on the track greatly exceed yours (John) and Fr0ngs. But that's because I am a wimp, and took 4 years to progress where I am today.

Fubar929 had great advice on how to save it once you are off the track:

Relax and coast to a stop with minimal brakes. However, at the moment you leave the pavement the machine has to ALREADY be fully upright, and if you are not going slow enough at the moment of the exit from the pavement there still is a high probability you can catch the dirt just right and still get tossed even if you are up right (your chances are better if you are on a Motard). If you touch the brakes you will also get tossed.

Fr0ng did not do this, and at the pace you said you guys were doing there is an astronomical amount of "potential" in the machine he was using to really get way out there and you can simply find yourself in a place you do not want to be before you can react.

I have found myself off the track many times, and with patience and skill I have developed a knack for knowing when I am going to completely blow the turn. It is undeniable Fr0ng's ability to correct for his mistake was deficient for the amount of time he had to react from the moment he knew something might be going wrong to the point of no return. Then again I don’t know how he crashed. It could be he was completely oblivious to the events unfolding and crashed without attempting to make any sort of correction. Both my track crashes where like this and I didn’t know I had crashed until I was looking at the wild blue.

When one goes off the track a crash can only be avoided when the decision has been made LONG before one leaves the pavement that you are not going to make it given the trajectory you have found yourself. At that split second the decision has to be made and the actions have to follow to stand up the bike and shave off as much speed as possible BEFORE you are off the pavement.

At 2:12-2:15 times with a machine capable of 20 more seconds it takes a great deal of discipline to be cognizant of the boundaries of the rider and the machine. Those lap times are slow enough to suggest that entirely incorrect lines are being laid down given the capability of the machines. From personal experience of racing 600s for two years (prior to racing 250s for 2 years) I know what a 2:15 feels like, and I know what it feels like to get below a 2:10. There is a boundary, and when you are doing everything you can on a 600 and the best you seem you can do is a 2:15ish you are at the limits of the incorrect lines being laid down. To go below a 2:15 on a 600 seems to only be met through changing lines, and taking it to the next level of riding skill (from beginner to novice).

However, what is very helpful is if one has laid down a whole bunch of laps at 2:15 one becomes intimate with those lines and trajectories. In my instance my confidence increased as eventually a 2:15 became second nature and allow my little brain to disseminate information in a calm and rational manner. From there I was able to attack faster paces because I understood where the limits were of my machine and the lines I selected.

I always found it a value to be towed by faster riders on SMALLER machines. Their flat out speed limitations and my cornering deficiencies was a perfect combination to tow me without getting over my head. I could follow them and had the ability to stay behind them. They would gain distance from me through the turn, and I could follow their lines. Then I could open it up and get back to them before the next turn with my power advantage and follow them through the next turn. Then through finding new lines I was able to take it to the next level and fall below the 2:10 mark.

For all you track riders and racers out there here is a polite word of advice. When you are out there in Practice group 1 or 2 with AFM or even at a track day, when a guy passes you through a turn on a machine with 60 less horsepower it might be because he knows a thing or two that you do not. Follow him/her through the turns. You will find your lap times will not improve in finite times. You will be frustrated with your reduced straight away speed, then you will come into the pits after the session and then realize HOLY SHIT!!!!! I was going SLOW as hell down the straight behind that 250 but my lap times are the same. Then you will decide to experiment with the new lines you discovered and apply them but with using your straight way speed advantage. Then you will find UH OH!!!!!!! I can NO LONGER enter the turn the SAME way I had been to begin with. Everything will change from braking markers to lean angles to vectors.

Then you find another bike that is a bit faster (like maybe a 400 or something) and repeat the process.

 

[Enchanter]

why the FUCK do you guys keep thinking this crash happened because we were riding too hard or over our heads or whatever else you can come up with by e-judgement???

Dude, the crash is evidence that something went down that the rider couldn't handle. He did not hit something, the track did not take an unexpected turn on that lap, etc. It was the same turn for the last few hours he rode it. The he did (or did not) do something he should (or should not) have done. Then he crashed. The crash is proof that he was riding beyond his skill level.

On my very first trackday on a 125, I was running with two of the top 10 AFM 125'rs. It was great being right on their ass for a few laps. I felt 'comfortable' and in control, no worries. Then the bike slid a little more than I expected (as I was passing them) and I almost took them both out. At that exact moment I was aware I was riding outside of my limits. It was too late then. The only option was to pull the correct skill out of my ass to avoid crashing. I did it and then immediately brought my pace down.

Riding at your skill level is not just making it thru a turn without crashing, it is being able to recover the bike when something else goes wrong. The fast guys always have a little safety buffer for just such an occasion. People that ride without that safety buffer are the ones riding beyond their skill level.

Oh, and as for 'backin it in'...if that was intentional and planned, then it was skill, if it was due to going in too hot or overbraking, then it's called luck (over your head) not skill. Nothing to be proud of.

 

[Holeshot]

No, they can't. I've worked with Lance Keigwin for a number of years. It's normal for someone to go from a 2:30-2:45 to 2:20s over the course of a year. People who drop into the 2:10s invariably crash, and crash big. I've yet to see someone drop into 2:10s their first year and not fuck themselves up badly, either at the track or on the street...

I don't pride myself on natural skill. However, a few first year racers drop to the 2:00 mark or slightly above, on a regular occurance. I rode 2:01's but I had a secret. I rode in control and not over my head....

The key is to run comfortably out there...

 

[Robert R1]

Learn how to go fast before you try to go fast.

 

[John]

Ace of Hearts, BudBandit, Holeshot,

The last thing I'm trying to do is start a pissing contest, honestly. Ace of Hearts your posts are actually more informative than most I've read about the accident in the past week.

I think I see your point of view now, thanks for clearing it up Holeshot, I think if I give it time so I can place myself outside of that day I'll get a better perspective of what happened.

Holeshot, regarding the "tow" comment, I'm obviously using the wrong word. We ran a warmup lap with our A group friend behind us, he passed us on the front straight and that's the lap Sami crashed I believe. I'm not sure what the right word is, but our A group rider wasn't "towing" us around in the sense that he was pushing us, he paced at 2:15s and slower and I kept up with him without trouble the rest of the session, only reason we weren't going faster was because I kept getting stuck behind people in a crowded session when some people re-entered B group from C group.

As for hitting the turn too hot, yes you guys are right, obviously both of us took that turn too hot, and over 100% of our ability. But the point I was trying to make was that Sami was riding slower that day due to suspension/damper issues, and he wasn't riding over his head.

The possibility that SteveCo brought up that he fixated on me is a good chance of being the reason for the crash. I know if I fixated on someone I'd lose that split second decision time to turn as well. I know I slid into that turn because the whole session I was wondering what Sami would say about it once we pitted. I don't know if he fixated on me but it is a great possibility because we are both at the same level so I'm sure he was trying to keep up.

IF that's the case and he was trying to keep up, yes then he was riding over his head in that turn. But please understand that he wasn't riding over his head the whole day, nor was he riding over 100% the whole day, it was the 2nd lap of the session, 1st lap after warmup, so he didn't have a chance to ride over his head, except for that turn, and if SteveCo's idea is true, then it was my fault he crashed because I was riding over my head and took the turn too hot.

Thanks for clearing it up though. As for bsd43's comment about riding 94%, that's not the correct measurement/proportion at the track. Riding 8+ seconds below your pace is a large difference, not just 6%.

Hope this clears things up...I've learned not to flame, if you really disagree with me enough to flame PM me, rather take it there...

 

[faz]

another to Ace of Hearts.

dude, when I grow up, I want to be like you.

 

[Holeshot]

No flames here man, just lessons...for even me.

Edit: Faz, it's "grow old" not "up"!!!! All that time on the peace pipe's made you think you're still growing!!!

 

[John]

Oh, and as for 'backin it in'...if that was intentional and planned, then it was skill, if it was due to going in too hot or overbraking, then it's called luck (over your head) not skill. Nothing to be proud of.

never said I was proud of it, scared me, but I see your point...

 

[staRang]

STFU!!

 

[Enchanter]

never said I was proud of it, scared me, but I see your point...

My 'proud' comment does seem a bit accusational...it wasn't meant that way. Sorry.

 

[Outta Control]

...The possibility that SteveCo brought up that he fixated on me is a good chance of being the reason for the crash. I know if I fixated on someone I'd lose that split second decision time to turn as well. I know I slid into that turn because the whole session I was wondering what Sami would say about it once we pitted. I don't know if he fixated on me but it is a great possibility because we are both at the same level so I'm sure he was trying to keep up....

No Flaming and not going to comment on fr0ng's incident. I don't know or have met him and I can only base his alter personality, if it be, here online. But I wanted to comment about the possible target fixation scenario. As most of the more experienced rider on this board has noted that a rider has to "go slow" to "go fast". I see that as a part of the natural progression of a learning curve, though as part of this skill is to focus and relax. And from my experience is that target fixation usualy, or in most cases, caused by the rider not focusing on his primary objective and also not keeping one'e body relaxed. In my older days of teaching MSF I found that any visual distractions while riding was part for a causal for target fixation. And this was an acceptable reason. I now find myself stepping out of the definition and realizing that I can go beyond the visual distraction a still have full control of the motorcycle. I have found that having a relaxed mental and physical preperation and having a set goal as I enter and exit a turn has my concsiousness pretty busy to even bother with any such distractions. Thus reducing my probability of crashing. I say this note in the hopes that understanding why some track/street rider seem to sometimes target fixate thus may result in muscle tensioning and their brain can't process the sudden burst of information to react appropriately and ends up placing too much inputs to crash.

By no means this is a cure all and there are incidents that will be enevitable to get out off. But understand and learning this process could help to reduce factors that determine the severity of an accident such as speed and position. This is just my 0.02 cents

 

[faz]

Edit: Faz, it's "grow old" not "up"!!!! All that time on the peace pipe's made you think you're still growing!!!

I am still growing up! (in more dimensions than one.)
.... and will never grow old!


peace pipes....

 

[Robert R1]

John, from your post about what happened sounds like "red mist." The "A" rider had been towing you guys around but it seemed like he passed you guys up and perhaps was about to go for some hot laps. I don't think frong realized that and figured he should be able to keep up since he was being towed the whole session. Frong went it there to keep the pace but didn't realize that that other guy was trying to check out...the rest we all know.

Another possibility is that the A rider might as been running around 2:15, but how was he getting those 2:15's? Was he flying into corners and then checking up on the exit? Being easy on the braking? Checking up on the straights? 5 diff. people can run the same laptime 5 different ways.

 

[fubar929]

I don't pride myself on natural skill. However, a few first year racers drop to the 2:00 mark or slightly above, on a regular occurance. I rode 2:01's but I had a secret. I rode in control and not over my head....

So NRS was your first time on a bike and by the eigth race of the year you were turning 2:01's?!?! Or, maybe, you had some prior riding experience before you managed to turn those times?

I believe that Sami's first time on the track was April or May and now, a couple of months later, he's running 25-30+ seconds faster! As I said: everyone I've seen who has dropped this much time, this quickly, with this little overall riding experience has crashed. Big. If you managed to avoid that trap, I salute you!