Steering vs Counter-Steering: at what speed do you do which?

[Enchanter]

Agree on CS @ speed, but a bicycle doesn't need any bar pushing at slow speed to turn, it needs upright stability. I would also bet that cyclists would benefit as much, if not more, from learning how to use front braking to change the arc of a corner. @ speed. I don't know any competent motorcyclists that aren't using a combination of braking and bar resistance for turning. Most don't know they're using counter steering, but they all know they're using brakes and that's a skill that can be consistently improved.

IMO, once counter steering is accepted, there's not much to really "do" there. Even if a rider doesn't push on the bars, they're at least not resisting the front wheel's movement and that's about all the improvement I can see with any technique, etc.

Braking technique improvements, on the other hand, will give a cyclist a measurable advantage, like a motorcycle.

Upright stability of a bicycle is attained through handlebar input / bar pushing. Most people subconsciously do this. Not a big deal on a bicycle for many reasons that go beyond the topic of this thread.

What is "handlebar resistance" when it comes to turning?

On the street, he ability to perform evasive maneuvers is critical. The most common multi-vehicle crash is another vehicle violating the motorcyclists path of travel. A firm countersteering input is needed at this time. Not resisting the front wheels movement is simply committing to the crash.

<deleted stuff that doesn't fit here>

 

[Enchanter]

Didn't Keith Code & Company figure all this out one, maybe two, hundred years ago? They rigged up a bike that had locked steering (straight ahead) and had folks trying to make turns riding it as I recall.

I don't think that this thread is debating that CS exists. I got into this thread to see if I am able to design something that shows when it takes place. Specifically how slow of a speed.

 

[SFMCjohn]

interesting vid that shows a moto u-turn technique that starts the turn at full lock the opposite direction of the turn:

[YOUTUBE]1LVSrs4HucI[/YOUTUBE]

so, I guess that’s counter-steering at zero mph …?

 

[stangmx13]

Yeah, aside from trying to compare bicycles to motorcycles, I don't understand the point of the exercise. Because the rider weighs so much more than the bicycle itself, rider weight (placement/ shift) has much more profound affect than actually using the bars to imitate a direction change. A motorcycle is the opposite: the rider weight is significantly less than the motorcycle itself, making the effect of physical counter steering as more profound.

They are both 2 wheeled vehicles with rake and round tires. They both function in the same way. The set of equations used to describe the control of both are the same. Each just have their own set of coefficients to describe how effective certain effects are. The amount of force required to push over a stationary and balanced moto is the same as a bicycle... a tiny force. It's an unstable system so anything will do it. At 1mph, the force required grows more for the moto because of many things, but it's still not large.

When exploring what is possible or significant in physical situations, it's often useful to look at the extremes. Study the bounds of your "problem" to prove things. For example, we know that countersteering is almost always required for controlling a moto. A moto is just a heavy bicycle, so maybe proving countersteering for a moto also proves it for a bicycle. Or look at the other bound. We know that bodysteering (not countersteering) can be used for controlling a bicycle. A bicycle is just a light moto, so maybe bodysteering a bicycle also proves it for a moto.

Youre right to question what you called "profound". I'd use the word "effective". Bodysteering is more effective on a lighter 2 wheel vehicle than a heavier one because the body is more massive compared to the total system. This whole conversation is going to revolve around "effective".

The real question(s) being asked in this thread is:

At what point (under what conditions) is countersteering the most effective means of controlling a vehicle?

At what speed or mass-proportion is bodysteering so ineffective for controlling a vehicle that it's not worth consciously doing?

We know that countersteering always works. It works at 0.01mph on the lightest bicycle and the heaviest moto. The easiest example of that is what you do with the bars when coming to a stop - want to put your left foot down every time... turn the bars a little right at the very end. These questions are asking when do other things work.

 

[Enchanter]

^^^ Well said and well written. Thanks for taking the time to type that out.

 

[stangmx13]

Agree on CS @ speed, but a bicycle doesn't need any bar pushing at slow speed to turn, it needs upright stability. I would also bet that cyclists would benefit as much, if not more, from learning how to use front braking to change the arc of a corner. @ speed. I don't know any competent motorcyclists that aren't using a combination of braking and bar resistance for turning. Most don't know they're using counter steering, but they all know they're using brakes and that's a skill that can be consistently improved.

IMO, once counter steering is accepted, there's not much to really "do" there. Even if a rider doesn't push on the bars, they're at least not resisting the front wheel's movement and that's about all the improvement I can see with any technique, etc.

Braking technique improvements, on the other hand, will give a cyclist a measurable advantage, like a motorcycle.

I think a lot of cycling crashes I see in asphalt races (crit, world tour, etc) where someone washes the front tire happen because the cyclist resists the front wheel's movement. The front end is so light that it's hard to let it track well. If you aren't consciously light on the front end, it takes very little force to resist the movement. And when I'm really light on the bars, it often feels like the front tire overshoots way further than on a moto, which has its own stability issues.

With moto education, it seems like people first get taught about countersteering. Then they get taught they need to let the bike steer itself after that. Cyclists barely get the first step, so I'd bet most never make it to the 2nd. IMO the thing "to do" is to consciously remember that you need to do nothing , that you need to let the front end steer.

 

[Maddevill]

Here's an easy way to understand Counter steering.
You push on the Right bar, which turns the wheel to the Left. The tire goes left out from under the bike which makes the bike fall to the right.
There are other factors involved but this is a simple example.

Mad

 

[CDONA]

All of this happens when gyro speed is up, the physics of two wheels at speed, and how it turns.

How much gyro, different wheels have due to weight, diameter, and spinning speed?
What amount of force to twist the bars from 1 mph, or 50 mph?
Test a high wheel bike, penny / farthing , you need that gyro.

What else??
What other tests are needed?

 

[stangmx13]

All of this happens when gyro speed is up, the physics of two wheels at speed, and how it turns.

How much gyro, different wheels have due to weight, diameter, and spinning speed?
What amount of force to twist the bars from 1 mph, or 50 mph?
Test a high wheel bike, penny / farthing , you need that gyro.

What else??
What other tests are needed?

Gyroscopic forces are not needed for a 2wheel vehicle to be stable, to balance or even self-balance. You don't even need trail. Here's a scientific paper. The paper concludes that their "bicycle" is stable because of the position of the front-end mass.
http://bicycle.tudelft.nl/stablebicycle/StableBicyclev34Revised.pdf

And the demo
[youtube]7nr7gxib4Pc[/youtube]

I doubt that gyroscopic forces have much impact on the magnitude of countersteering, ie you dont need to countersteer further because your front wheel is heavier. But that would be interesting to prove through experimentation. It will be harder to countersteer with a heavier front wheel.

 

[N4teTheGreat]

Agree on the push bikes, I never had training wheels, I had my dad jogging behind me and holding the seat until I was up to speed and then letting me go. He usually could catch me before I bit it, but there were some crashes, including a few bushes that were the result of target fixation, but I got it and rode that bike everywhere after that. Bought a push bike for my nephew on xmas and he picked up riding quick, then my niece used it as well, worthy investment.

 

[Gary856]

Instead of thinking steering-counter-steering, think about the underlying physics: centrifugal force - the force AWAY from the center of turn – at what speed does it start? It starts as soon as you start moving and change direction, no matter how slow; you don’t perceive it until speed and centrifugal force reach the human perception threshold.

When you travel in a straight line and turn the front wheel in one direction, your body/mass (inertia) wants to keep going straight, so you end up leaning to the opposite direction due to centrifugal force. So:

1. Once moving, no matter how slowly, turning the front wheel left will results in leaning to the right due to centrifugal force.

2. The faster you move, the harder you turn the wheel to the left, the more centrifugal force will cause you to lean to the right.

3. If you keep the front wheel pointed to the left, you’ll fall over to the right, so you need to allow (not steer) the front wheel to move to the right to follow the direction of lean to the right, thus turning to the right.


Nothing new so far, but let’s go one step further…

4. Even people believing in counter-steering think there are 2 steps in steering: step 1: counter-steer to lean, step 2: direct steer after leaning; this is the apparent experience when you do a hard U-turn – initiate the lean with counter-steer the front wheel, then direct-steer by cranking the front wheel in the same direction of the turn to full lock. But step 2 is still counter-steering when you think thru the point of view of centrifugal force.

5. In a turn, and when coming to a stop, gravity wants to pull you down, so you’d quickly steer the front wheel in the direction of the lean/fall to avoid falling. Why does that work? Because to stop falling to the right, you need more centrifugal force to the left to counteract gravity -> by turning the front wheel hard to the right (same direction of the lean/fall), the centrifugal acts in the opposite direction (left) to stop you from falling to the right. So the “second step”, turning the wheel in the same direction of the lean is to increase centrifugal force in the opposite direction of the lean, i.e., steer in one direction to increase centrifugal force in the opposite direction – the physics is the same for both step-1 and 2, i.e., there’s no such a thing as direct steering.


TLDR: Once moving, centrifugal force always acts in the opposite direction from the direction the front wheel is turned - that’s all counter-steering is about.

 

[CDONA]

Testing big swings of the bars at a walking pace.
I do have a bit of gyro that I feel, as I did this, just a 90 turn, upright/no lean, executed quick and clean, no wobble, straight.
All muscle, then back to gyro. Stuff that I do without thinking every day, learned over a lifetime.

 

[tuxumino]

here's an experiment to try: walk next to a bicycle holding the gooseneck and turn to the right, then walk next to a bicycle holding the seat and get it to turn to the right.

here's a vid that first came to mind when I read the OP

[youtube]MFzDaBzBlL0[/youtube]

 

[stangmx13]

Nothing new so far, but let’s go one step further…

4. Even people believing in counter-steering think there are 2 steps in steering: step 1: counter-steer to lean, step 2: direct steer after leaning; this is the apparent experience when you do a hard U-turn – initiate the lean with counter-steer the front wheel, then direct-steer by cranking the front wheel in the same direction of the turn to full lock. But step 2 is still counter-steering when you think thru the point of view of centrifugal force.

5. In a turn, and when coming to a stop, gravity wants to pull you down, so you’d quickly steer the front wheel in the direction of the lean/fall to avoid falling. Why does that work? Because to stop falling to the right, you need more centrifugal force to the left to counteract gravity -> by turning the front wheel hard to the right (same direction of the lean/fall), the centrifugal acts in the opposite direction (left) to stop you from falling to the right. So the “second step”, turning the wheel in the same direction of the lean is to increase centrifugal force in the opposite direction of the lean, i.e., steer in one direction to increase centrifugal force in the opposite direction – the physics is the same for both step-1 and 2, i.e., there’s no such a thing as direct steering.

I can tell you've never spent any time reading comments on Instragram videos of motos and moto crashes. There are a million people there that dont know that the bars point into the turn after the countersteering phase. They see a crash, see the bars pointing inwards, and exclaim "you crashed because you didnt countersteer" . Lot's of people believe in countersteering - many have no idea how/why it works nor what happens after.

My stance is definitely "lots of things are countersteering", but you took it a step further . I think that countersteering is always a deliberate action by the rider. I dont think that the moto countersteers itself to add centrifugal force during the steering phrase where the bars turn inwards "automatically", because countersteering is a rider action. The moto is steering itself, not countersteering itself. But that's just semantics - we in no way disagree on what is occurring.

 

[BillSmith]

Tux,

Thanks for the video. Fascinating.

As I grow older, occasionally discover something in the, 'it's like riding a bike', repetitive learning set that either has been lost or severely challenged.

At one time, I could jump rope in the fashion of a boxer. Now? Bahahahaha! Too long of a gap in passes under the feet.

A challenge to all, try reversing things you normally do. Handle playing cards the opposite way you currently deal. Awkward. Which is the lesser problem? Thumbing the next card into position or flinging it to each player?

 

[ST Guy]

For me, even though I already instinctively knew counter steering before I ever rode a motorcycle, I simply described it as pushing the front wheel from under the bike. If you push the front wheel to the right (by pushing on the left bar), the bike will lean to the left and will turn to the left.

Countersteerng can be confusing,though, to many people.

Gyroscopic forces have nothing to do with steering a two wheel vehicle. If one were to come up with a wheel/tire assembly so that there was zero mass, the motorcycle would steer exactly the same way. Push your left bar to direct the wheel/tire contact patch to the right and the bike will lean to the left and turn left.

When you counter steer, you are simply pushing the tire contact patch away from its current path to a new path.

 

[stangmx13]

For everyone saying "ya i countersteer", what is the lowest speed you can feel yourself doing it?

 

[Enchanter]

For everyone saying "ya i countersteer", what is the lowest speed you can feel yourself doing it?

5mph-ish.

When warming up class motorcycles I'll take a few laps around the range practicing exercises and screwing around. I frequently ride as slow as I can without wobbling and weaving and then press on a bar.

I have a class bike with a loose / bent bar-end weight, and if I twist it just right I can get it to lock the throttle enough that I can unwrap my hand / fingers from the handlebar. With lots of practice I've learned to ride the bike the length of the range hands free (220ft) between 5-10mph. When doing this I'll extend a pointer finger and press forward on a bar. I've very conscious of the inputs of my body and feet, and can damn near eliminate them as an input to directional control.

 

[budman]

I would agree with 5 ish.

 

[Holeshot]

here's an experiment to try: walk next to a bicycle holding the gooseneck and turn to the right, then walk next to a bicycle holding the seat and get it to turn to the right.

here's a vid that first came to mind when I read the OP

[youtube]MFzDaBzBlL0[/youtube]

Neat vid, thanks for that Tux. Dovetails into what I was gonna post earlier: you can train an old dog, it just takes a bit longer. Case in point; motorcyclists on a standup jetski their first time is a painful experience for those actively using counter steering as a primary tool to turn a bike. They'll turn the bars wrong for at least a good hour of riding or so and then, suddenly figure out to turn the bars into the turn and lean with the ski instead of turning them the opposite way. It's amazing to watch cause so many bike guys do this.

Having learned on a standup when I was around 5 years old, it's certainly my primary feeling/ bias to turn bars into a corner. It's llkely why I don't put much focus on the counter steering aspect of a motorcycle, and instead on the actual steering component...something BARF eschewed up until the last few years when steering actually started to gain recognition.