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Steering vs Counter-Steering: at what speed do you do which?

Holeshot said:
Truth. However, once there's even a slight degree of lean angle, there will be a large discrepancy in the force on both bars. Yes: pushing on the outside bar will help stand a bike up, but it's far easier to pull the inside bar IME. The outside bar is awkward to use effectively as the inside bar is, for me.
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When hung off the bike, it does tend to be easier to pull the inside bar to stand the bike up than push the outside. There isn’t really any difference in the force required at the bars, but that force is more disruptive to your body and being anchored to the bike when you’re hanging off the right side and trying to push the left bar.

On entry, there is less disruption to the body to press forward on the inside bar. The outside foot and leg are in a good position to brace against that effort, being diagonal opposites to the force.
 
Good post Andy and the reality isn't lost on me that anything <40 mph or much easier to change direction VS higher speeds. I've changed my opinion of the value in teaching CS over the years and was never able to describe well my issues with the constant fascination centered on counter steering. Finally, Tom said what I couldn't: Once one understands counter steering, there's not much to improve there, as a sole control.

Enchanter said:
A decent number of those riders arrived without the ability to swerve to avoid an 8ft wide obstacle 16ft ahead at a speed of 15-18mph. It's embarrassing to say I know more than a few instructors that cannot do it on a training bike at 15mph and 13ft. Most advanced riders cannot successfully get through a 10ft x 20ft weave of 7 cones when they first show up.


This has been part of the MSF curriculum since god made dirt. Press to select and adjust the lean. More press = more lean, less press = less lean.

Many riders adjust their speed to accommodate their cornering skill-set of leaning their body into the turn to get the bike to turn. That technique isn't going to help them to swerve to avoid an obstacle.
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Good info, thanks. Do well advanced riders have the skill to weave in the middle of the corner and miss an object? At what speed?

Shoot, forgot to post link to poll. 0 replies for people feeling unfamiliar w/ counter steering and your personal experience(s) make for a lack of awareness from riders.

https://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11052399#post11052399
 
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Gary856 said:
Instead of thinking steering-counter-steering, think about the underlying physics: centrifugal force - the force AWAY from the center of turn – at what speed does it start? It starts as soon as you start moving and change direction, no matter how slow; you don’t perceive it until speed and centrifugal force reach the human perception threshold.

When you travel in a straight line and turn the front wheel in one direction, your body/mass (inertia) wants to keep going straight, so you end up leaning to the opposite direction due to centrifugal force. So:

1. Once moving, no matter how slowly, turning the front wheel left will results in leaning to the right due to centrifugal force.

2. The faster you move, the harder you turn the wheel to the left, the more centrifugal force will cause you to lean to the right.

3. If you keep the front wheel pointed to the left, you’ll fall over to the right, so you need to allow (not steer) the front wheel to move to the right to follow the direction of lean to the right, thus turning to the right.


Nothing new so far, but let’s go one step further…

4. Even people believing in counter-steering think there are 2 steps in steering: step 1: counter-steer to lean, step 2: direct steer after leaning; this is the apparent experience when you do a hard U-turn – initiate the lean with counter-steer the front wheel, then direct-steer by cranking the front wheel in the same direction of the turn to full lock. But step 2 is still counter-steering when you think thru the point of view of centrifugal force.

5. In a turn, and when coming to a stop, gravity wants to pull you down, so you’d quickly steer the front wheel in the direction of the lean/fall to avoid falling. Why does that work? Because to stop falling to the right, you need more centrifugal force to the left to counteract gravity -> by turning the front wheel hard to the right (same direction of the lean/fall), the centrifugal acts in the opposite direction (left) to stop you from falling to the right. So the “second step”, turning the wheel in the same direction of the lean is to increase centrifugal force in the opposite direction of the lean, i.e., steer in one direction to increase centrifugal force in the opposite direction – the physics is the same for both step-1 and 2, i.e., there’s no such a thing as direct steering.


TLDR: Once moving, centrifugal force always acts in the opposite direction from the direction the front wheel is turned - that’s all counter-steering is about.
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Your comments are good, there are a few things to mention:

1) The main reason motorcycles steer as they do is because they are inverted pendulums. That's the essence and central factor in play and describes how and why they behave as they do in the realm of steering. Look up Cornell University professor Andy Ruina's work relating to bicycles if you're feeling motivated.

2) Centrifugal force is not a real force. It's better to call it plain inertia for your purposes. "Centrifugal force is an apparent force that appears to act on objects moving in a circular path. It is often misunderstood because it seems like a real force, but it's actually a fictitious or inertial force."

3) The turning in after the countersteer is often referred to as "pro-steer", sometimes it's referred to as "wheel flop" which is a function of trail. This is what you were referring to as direct steering, but I agree often at low speeds we need to direct steer the bike to avoid falling over due to not enough speed to match the lean that was initiated.

Best,
Dylan Code
California Superbike School
 
This point has struck me, hard.
The gyro effect from the centrifugal force disappears so fast when the wheel locks.
The slamming into the ground, not easing into a low side, wheels spinning.
How about the rear wheel waving back and forth, straight line, locked up, no stability, instantly.
 
CDONA said:
This point has struck me, hard.
The gyro effect from the centrifugal force disappears so fast when the wheel locks.
The slamming into the ground, not easing into a low side, wheels spinning.
How about the rear wheel waving back and forth, straight line, locked up, no stability, instantly.
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The rear wheel can be a problem. If you lock the rear, you have to be careful when you release if. If its weaving and out of line, when it spins back up, it will want to line up with the front and snaps in place (perhaps violently).
 
There was another thing I used to do when I was learning dirt with knobbies
I would lock up the front wheel on pavement going straight line, and see how far I could ride/hold it upright. Start from stop or rolling slow first, a "good one" was about 10'
This had absolutely nothing to do with riding dynamics, but ignoring them, doing without.

Typing this made me realize that a front wheel in deep sand, when it pushes sideways it slows the spin down and you lose your float, and balance like when the wheel locks.
I do that so much, get so far out of shape, get the wheel back in line, it spins, it floats, again, control returns.

Oh, my god, locked front wheel practice helps in deep sand????

Dune :ride :thumbup
 
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Great thread, enjoying this muchly.

For those who want to get some idea of the forces involved, get your bicycle wheel with an axle through it, hold it up in the air, and quickly spin it.

Now remove your hand from one side of the axle. If you get it done right, the wheel will continue to spin without tipping to the side where you remove the hand. Centripetal force is real. That wheel WANTS to go in a straight line.

Now, spin it up, hold the axle at each side, and push forward on one side. Watch that wheel flop over.

Those two exercises will tell you more about countersteering, gyroscopic precession, and centripetal force.

The average motorcycle wheel is much heavier than a bicycle wheel and traveling at much higher rpm. The amount of centripetal force built up in that baby is ASTOUNDING. It does not want to turn.
 
Good video Dylan. I remember that from several years back too, now. Good post!
 
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