Steering vs Counter-Steering: at what speed do you do which?

[stangmx13]

Having learned on a standup when I was around 5 years old, it's certainly my primary feeling/ bias to turn bars into a corner. It's llkely why I don't put much focus on the counter steering aspect of a motorcycle, and instead on the actual steering component...something BARF eschewed up until the last few years when steering actually started to gain recognition.

I rem that thread.

The best discovery in that thread was when we learned that the rear wheel does in fact point outwards in a turn

 

[Holeshot]

Upright stability of a bicycle is attained through handlebar input / bar pushing. Most people subconsciously do this. Not a big deal on a bicycle for many reasons that go beyond the topic of this thread.

What is "handlebar resistance" when it comes to turning?

It's the counter to "direct steering"!

Handlebar resistance is adding lean angle with inside bar pressure. The more lean angle added, the greater the bike wants to steer to the inside. Add braking, a bit of lean angle, and inside weight (foot on peg) and the fight becomes on resisting the turn in until the right moment.

I've always argued that understanding counter steering isn't that important. It's everything a rider does consciously using controls that matters more. Like Robert said: you can't avoid counter steering if you ride a two wheel vehicle and one you know it exists, there's not much use for knowing more. Move on to corner entry and exit skills.

At what point (under what conditions) is countersteering the most effective means of controlling a vehicle?

At what speed or mass-proportion is bodysteering so ineffective for controlling a vehicle that it's not worth consciously doing?

Brakes + CG change will initiate lean angle, so long as there's inside bar pressure. All the things you said: yes. At slow speeds CS is a much easier (and lazier) way to steer a bike and it's an easy tool for teaching new riders. I knew nothing about counter steering until I'd been through my novice year of racing. I did know about the weight placement and braking, however.

body steering when used in combination with braking largely has no limit because the bike will need to be slowed to a speed that's appropriate for the corner. This is not to say CS isn't taking place (it is), but as a skill that can be improved on, I don't see CS as more than an awareness thing (and something we discuss on the internet).

There are a million people there that dont know that the bars point into the turn after the countersteering phase.

The moto is steering itself, not countersteering itself.

The answer to what direction is the the front wheel pointed in the middle of the corner is one 80% of riders fail. If you look back and early BARF threads up to say 5 years ago or so, the steering phase is largely discarded as unimportant. I remember asking a very well known rider coach this question maybe 15 years or so ago. They didn't know and came back with the wrong answer. Blew me away.

For people to understand the effectiveness of body steering, ask them why GP riders take their inside legs off the peg.

For everyone saying "ya i countersteer", what is the lowest speed you can feel yourself doing it?

.001 mph. Almost anytime someone's riding there's bar pressure on one bar or another. But, I'm not aware I'm doing much of it.

 

[CDONA]

Different feels from a 19" front wheels, 17", and 12", @ different speeds.
And yes, I did fall from jet skis for years, effortless cruising all planed out, one mindless minor course correction, biff.

 

[stangmx13]

Brakes + CG change will initiate lean angle, so long as there's inside bar pressure. All the things you said: yes. At slow speeds CS is a much easier (and lazier) way to steer a bike and it's an easy tool for teaching new riders. I knew nothing about counter steering until I'd been through my novice year of racing. I did know about the weight placement and braking, however.

That's countersteering by my definition. You are preventing the front tire from tracking with the bar pressure. This is initiating the lean, more so than the brakes and CG change.

Newtons 3rd law says you can't initiate lean with a CG change. You move your body left, the bike moves right, and the overall CG didn't change. In the real world, things can move fast and we have friction. So you can get a small lasting CG change if you move your body slowly or a larger momentary CG change if you move quickly/forcefully. The small one is terribly slow and not that useful. The larger one can be useful if everything is timed well.

That principle is where the moto-bicycle comparison breaks down. With a moto, your body movement isn't going to produce large enough of a change to crash the moto, mostly because the mass differences produce small CG changes. With a bicycle, a body movement can produce a huge CG change. This can make it physically impossible for the bicycle to steer itself, say requiring an unattainable steering angle, so you crash.

 

[Holeshot]

Bar pressure (push) is almost always gonna be a counter steer movement. I can't see bar pressure from an outside hand. To increase steering/ stand the bike up, it's an inside bar pull.

A speed change + CG change + bar pressure. Top riders change CG last, as I'm sure you know.

 

[BadStorms]

Yeah, anything north of purposeful walking speed requires counter steering. It just feels natural once you get going above parking lot speed.

 

[Gary856]

I think people who think they turn by leaning their body invariably put pressure on the inside bar by leaning toward it, and pull on the outside bar. They do this unconsciously, and it doesn't take much bar pressure in a gradual turn.

So why is knowing countering steering important? Because you can move your hands much quicker, and more deliberately, than your body, thus using less energy, with more direct results -> quicker and sharper direction change.

For everyone saying "ya i countersteer", what is the lowest speed you can feel yourself doing it?

Right up to the point before I come to a complete stop.

Bar pressure (push) is almost always gonna be a counter steer movement. I can't see bar pressure from an outside hand. To increase steering/ stand the bike up, it's an inside bar pull.

I CAN see bar pressure from an outside hand - do that all the time, often, but not always, along with the inside hand pulling.

 

[Holeshot]

Really? you're pulling on an outside bar while pushing with the other?

 

[Gary856]

Yes, really. Is using both hands that unusual? I've read many times that others do that too. It's very natural on dirt/SM/ADV bikes with wide bars, but I did that on sport bikes too.

The mental image I often have when counter-steering is that I'm twisting a T-handled wrench to open/close a cap on top of a well. Another mental image is that my forearms are a pair of windshield wipers moving in sync horizontally.

Do you have a mental image when you counter-steer?

 

[ST Guy]

Really? you're pulling on an outside bar while pushing with the other?

I've done it fairly frequently. You can countersteer by either pushing on the bar that's on the side you want to turn to. Or you can countersteer by pulling on theopposite bar. Either works, though pushing is easier to do than pulling.

And you can do both. push on one bar and pull on the other bar.

I remember talking with a woman rider once who avoided a crash by doing both. She did the contersteer push and at the same time, pulled on the outside bar. That accellerated the rate of the turn and enabled her to avoid crashing into what she was trying to avoid.

 

[BillSmith]

In the classic, left hand on hip-headed for Starbuck's pose, doesn't that rider alternate between pushing and pulling the right grip to wend his way through traffic?

 

[Enchanter]

I also use inside and outside bars at the same time to counter-steer. Not all the time, but frequently.

As we all know there are two categories of street rider crashes, single-vehicle and multi-vehicle. For single-vehicle crashes, the most common reason is running wide in a turn (failure to counter-steer). For multi-vehicle it is the failure to avoid the vehicle that violates the motorcycles path (failure to counter-steer). Both of these instances the rider is generally in panic mode. When in panic mode they revert to attempting to change direction by leaning their body, attempting to push the motorcycle sideways, or turning the front wheel in the direction of the turn(direct steering). Obviously none of these work. Its in these panic situations, when lizard brain takes over, the rider needs to have counter-steering embedded in their brain. For most people that means learning and actively practicing it until it is subconscious and muscle-memory. It is uncommon for a rider to counter-steer subconsciously in an emergency / panic situation without prior training (formal or self).

Counter-steering is the quickest way to adjust motorcycle lean / adjust path of travel.

 

[ThinkFast]

As we all know there are two categories of street rider crashes, single-vehicle and multi-vehicle. For single-vehicle crashes, the most common reason is running wide in a turn (failure to counter-steer).

Since when has running wide in a turn become equated with failure to counter-steer??

How about target fixation? Failure to look all the way through the turn? Or not trusting your tires to maintain traction at high lean angle?

For multi-vehicle it is the failure to avoid the vehicle that violates the motorcycles path (failure to counter-steer). Both of these instances the rider is generally in panic mode. When in panic mode they revert to attempting to change direction by leaning their body, attempting to push the motorcycle sideways, or turning the front wheel in the direction of the turn(direct steering).

Obviously none of these work. Its in these panic situations, when lizard brain takes over, the rider needs to have counter-steering embedded in their brain. For most people that means learning and actively practicing it until it is subconscious and muscle-memory. It is uncommon for a rider to counter-steer subconsciously in an emergency / panic situation without prior training (formal or self).

How about knowing how to brake effectively? Properly use ABS? Use the front brake? Countersteering to avoid another vehicle that has intruded into your lane is one strategy to use for some situations. I’d be willing to bet that the majority of avoidable moto vs. car/other vehicle crashes would have been avoided via braking rather than countersteering.

In both cases, running wide in turns or getting involved with another vehicle, I’d suggest that much of the risk of either of these can be mitigated with better cognitive and vision skills. Better scanning. Keeping vision wide. Staying calm and processing all available relevant information. Looking where you want to go. These all occur above the neck, don’t require much training, and can be improved with practice; and can be be practiced every day both on and off the bike.

 

[ST Guy]

Enchanter is pretty much correct. The most common reason for running wide in a turn is insufficient counter steering. Motorcycles are capable of much greater lean angles than what the average rider ever attains. One must get over the fear of really leaning the bike.

Of course, there are other factors that result in running wide but in the vast majority of cases, running wide can be avoided by simply counter steering more which will tighten up the bikes turning radius which results in an increased lean angle.

One can also brake but that requires a skill set that many riders don’t have. To use the brakes in a turn while you’re turning and going faster than you’d like to be traveling can be a delicate operation.

 

[Gary856]

Since when has running wide in a turn become equated with failure to counter-steer??

Since the focus of this thread is on counter-steering.

You can do all the other stuff right - vision, anticipation, brake, etc., but what happens when you cannot steer effectively?

 

[budman]

I also inside and outside bars at the same time to counter-steer. Not all the time, but frequently.

<snip>

Counter-steering is the quickest way to adjust motorcycle lean / adjust path of travel.

I definately do it when dealing with an aggressive sporting pace on the Multi-Piggy. I think I do it frequently actually. Set the lean with the push and keeping it solid with the pull. The weight of the bike demands a strong response.

Enchanter is pretty much correct. The most common reason for running wide in a turn is insufficient counter steering. Motorcycles are capable of much greater lean angles than what the average rider ever attains. One must get over the fear of really leaning the bike.
.

I have done the oh shit lean from hell quite a few times. Just got to believe!!!
When the peg hits... I lose a little belief.

 

[ThinkFast]

Since the focus of this thread is on counter-steering.

You can do all the other stuff right - vision, anticipation, brake, etc., but what happens when you cannot steer effectively?

Not like it takes any kind of major strength to “steer effectively.” Just pull (or push) a little harder on the bars. What’s that you say? You don’t want to? Or couldn’t? Why not? Like Yogi said, 90% of riding is half mental.

 

[ST Guy]

I definately do it when dealing with an aggressive sporting pace on the Multi-Piggy. I think I do it frequently actually. Set the lean with the push and keeping it solid with the pull. The weight of the bike demands a strong response.



I have done the oh shit lean from hell quite a few times. Just got to believe!!!
When the peg hits... I lose a little belief.

That’s when my butt instantly shifts to the inside of the turn and I hang off a bit, thereby gaining some cornering clearance. Came in handy up in the Sierras once with my wife behind me.

 

[Holeshot]

Yes, really. Is using both hands that unusual? I've read many times that others do that too. It's very natural on dirt/SM/ADV bikes with wide bars, but I did that on sport bikes too.

Do you have a mental image when you counter-steer?

Like Tom and Robert said: counter steering isn't something I'm focused on at all. Like, almost never. I'm absolutely using bar pressure when at (lower) street pace, but I also realize my perspective on CS is different from around-town riding. 90% (or more) of my annual riding is @ a track environmentn running at pace. My corners, I'm focused on brake pressure, turn-in point, and when I can pick up the throttle. I'm not even focused on body shifting, which happens automatically. Now...all that tends to go to shit when I get in a chase battle.

Around town, yeah, my hands are moving with the bars, but I'm not using both at the same time unless it's to balance the bike at slow speeds. Initiating lean at low speeds is a lot easier with weight too, but there's still the resistance at the inside bar to keep the bike from too much steering/ turning.

And you can do both. push on one bar and pull on the other bar.

Truth. However, once there's even a slight degree of lean angle, there will be a large discrepancy in the force on both bars. Yes: pushing on the outside bar will help stand a bike up, but it's far easier to pull the inside bar IME. The outside bar is awkward to use effectively as the inside bar is, for me.

I have had a few races where bars have come loose and I've only has one bar to work with. @ that point, anyone who thinks you can ride without bar pressure learns reality. But, I can get around a track fine with one bar, but when it's the outside bar, it's just super weird cause of where my body's at, etc.

In the classic, left hand on hip-headed for Starbuck's pose, doesn't that rider alternate between pushing and pulling the right grip to wend his way through traffic?

Brakes and weight will make do too. Once again, this conversation has me realizing that riders may not be aware when they're "pushing" and when they're "resisting". There's a difference, IMO. Pushing to me, implies the initiation of lean. Resisting means added lean, but it also equates to holding a certain arc (so long as we're not accelerating).

I also use inside and outside bars at the same time to counter-steer. Not all the time, but frequently.

As we all know there are two categories of street rider crashes, single-vehicle and multi-vehicle. For single-vehicle crashes, the most common reason is running wide in a turn (failure to counter-steer). For multi-vehicle it is the failure to avoid the vehicle that violates the motorcycles path (failure to counter-steer). Both of these instances the rider is generally in panic mode. When in panic mode they revert to attempting to change direction by leaning their body, attempting to push the motorcycle sideways, or turning the front wheel in the direction of the turn(direct steering). Obviously none of these work. Its in these panic situations, when lizard brain takes over, the rider needs to have counter-steering embedded in their brain. For most people that means learning and actively practicing it until it is subconscious and muscle-memory. It is uncommon for a rider to counter-steer subconsciously in an emergency / panic situation without prior training (formal or self).

Counter-steering is the quickest way to adjust motorcycle lean / adjust path of travel.

These must all be fairly new or low time (annually) riders. I question that failure to counter steer is the primary reason for lane violations given many new and inexperienced riders fear actual lean angle. I believe those riders are purposely NOT counter steering. I'd pick elevated speed, poor eye placement and fear of lean angle. Also, i've always felt that by not explaining what happens after counter steering, riders continue to fight the subsequent steering phase. If riders understood (and experienced) that by stopping countersteering, they then stop increasing lean angle. Above all: eyes first. Experienced riders tend to not have emergency situations because they're experienced in spotting problems before they fully form. Application of brakes is the most common manner in which to avoid accidents (aside from getting ass-packed). Hmmmm...now I'm thinking of a survey thread.

Good discussion anyway and always, thanks T.

Since when has running wide in a turn become equated with failure to counter-steer??

How about target fixation? Failure to look all the way through the turn? Or not trusting your tires to maintain traction at high lean angle?

Enchanter is pretty much correct. The most common reason for running wide in a turn is insufficient counter steering. Motorcycles are capable of much greater lean angles than what the average rider ever attains. One must get over the fear of really leaning the bike.

Of course, there are other factors that result in running wide but in the vast majority of cases, running wide can be avoided by simply counter steering more which will tighten up the bikes turning radius which results in an increased lean angle.

I think Tom hit the nail on the head. New and low time riders fear lean angle. They fear "grip issues" and don't trust what happens at increased lean angles. We all know, the secret to having less lean angle and still have steering is body placement.

Since the focus of this thread is on counter-steering.

You can do all the other stuff right - vision, anticipation, brake, etc., but what happens when you cannot steer effectively?

Vision, brakes, body position are all parts of the system that steer a motorcycle. Bar pressure too.

 

[Enchanter]

These must all be fairly new or low time (annually) riders.

It would be a conservative estimate that I've taught 420 experienced / seasoned riders. One advanced class of 12 each year since becoming an MSF instructor, at least half those years I taught 2 or more. A decent number of those riders arrived without the ability to swerve to avoid an 8ft wide obstacle 16ft ahead at a speed of 15-18mph. It's embarrassing to say I know more than a few instructors that cannot do it on a training bike at 15mph and 13ft. Most advanced riders cannot successfully get through a 10ft x 20ft weave of 7 cones when they first show up.

If riders understood (and experienced) that by stopping countersteering, they then stop increasing lean angle.

This has been part of the MSF curriculum since god made dirt. Press to select and adjust the lean. More press = more lean, less press = less lean.

Many riders adjust their speed to accommodate their cornering skill-set of leaning their body into the turn to get the bike to turn. That technique isn't going to help them to swerve to avoid an obstacle.