The question...... (How to decrease motorcycle fatalities)

[Traq]

With that being said let me ask you all this:

What is it going to take, and what can be done to lower the number of deaths of motorcycle riders?

1) Mandatory training (the only thing ever shown to affect accident rates).
2) Tiered licensing.

As already said above...raw numbers aren't very meaningful. I suspect, however, even accident rates will show a bad trend because of all the new untrained riders going to 2 wheels trying to save gas.

 

[zrex]

Thanks Rel,

Besides the tiered licensing and such,

How about CHP/Police style training for new or experienced motorcyclists?

My wife took such a class from Wells Cornette, the Motor Officer Trainer for
the Opellousas, LA PD. www.cornette883@cs.com
Top Gun Motorcycle School

His school focused on true street riding skills. MSF is a good place to start, but there needs to be another level.

My Wife was a re-entry rider who come out very well prepared with proper techniques for realistic riding.
The drills he gave her were invaluable for rebuilding her skills. He also taught her some advanced handling techniques previously unknown to her.


In Data Dans stats, it seemed that a large number of the fatalities were on FREEWAYS!!
That's something to chew on.

Thanks Rel!

 

[mookiera]

Excellent points all. It seemed like duplication of effort and neither approach would have any real effect on fatalities.

Right out of Ziggy's "Department of Redundancy Department"

 

[mookiera]

Do you have an objection you can express in English? If so please post it, and I'll respond. If not, STFU.

Your data seems to be a small part of a large picture and therefore not
totally relevant to or representing the big picture.
If you can't present conclusions based on all the data, please don't post your
conclusions based on a subset of the data, pretending it is relevant.
STFU = Stats That are F*cked Up

 

[louemc]

Reducing Motorcycle Fatalities, is a lost cause.

I just have to believes it's a very rare case, where A motorcycle rider that was serious about wanting to be safe, and pursued training and dressing for what they were doing, ended up in the statistic column.

The riders that didn't think there was a skill to learn, and didn't see a need for protective gear, though....

 

[DataDan]

Your data seems to be a small part of a large picture and therefore not totally relevant to or representing the big picture.

It is a small part of the big picture--27 fatal sportbike crashes in the Bay Area in 2006, as noted in both places it appears in this thread. It doesn't imply anything about anything other than Bay Area sportbike crashes. However, about those, it says that riders create most of their own problems, so to reduce sportbike deaths in the Bay Area, rider behavior should be the focus.

 

[DocWong]

This is a great thread!

Doing the Doc Wong Riding Clinics for the last 15 years and having worked with thousands of riders regarding skills and safety, here's my viewpoint on the causes of crashes/fatalities and my suggestions to save more lives.

Surviving on a motorcycle with all of its' hazards by default requires that the rider become much more proficient than the average car driver. This is a proficiency in skill level and attitude. Even then, there are no guarantees, but I firmly believe we can manage that risk effectively.

Most common causes: Of course there are an infinite number of ways to screw up and get yourself hurt, however here are the most common that I have found:

1. Riding beyond one's skill level: While this can certainly apply to excessive speed, one can certainly get into trouble way within the posted speed limits. Every rider has a certain speed that he/she can safely manage. Go beyond that and you get into trouble.

2. Continual riding errors: Most riders are making basic riding skill errors....all the time. If they keep their speeds down, they typically get along relatively well. However, when conditions change as it often does on streets or mountain roads, that's when those riding errors come out and causes the crash.

3. Poor Visual Skills: While you can look too far down the road, most riders don't look far enough ahead and make the mistake of scanning too much, making it easier to fixate and not see something else more important, like an escape route or fixating on where the rider is going to crash will lead them right to the crash point.

4. Excessive Speed: This pertains to the rider that has a high level of skill and can certainly manage the corner or the traffic situation, however due to unforeseen circumstances, slow moving vehicles, debris, car pulling out in front of them, unexpected corner condition, etc. The street is a very limited venue for going fast. The fastest street riders are skilled, however they are the ones willing to take the bigger risks too.

My suggestions for correction and the reasons why I do the Doc Wong Riding Clinics:

1. Riding Beyond One's Skill Level: Know the various symptoms of riding beyond one's skill level, learn to recognize them and click down the speeds. Or use this information to get your buddies to calm down and not get into trouble. It ruins everyone's day when someone crashes.

2. Continual Riding Errors: Continue to improve on riding skills. This is a lifelong activity. Riders that continue to improve on their skills feel much more confident, smooth and safe riding.

3. Visual Skills: Keeping a wide screen vision. Instead of scanning like what is taught in driver's education, look ahead and be visually aware of the whole scene. Do not stare. Though you'll have to do some scanning of your rear view mirrors, for the most part going thru an intersection by looking forward and allowing your periferal vision to work is more effective than looking right, looking left and looking forward. This is way too slow. On mountain turns not only look ahead up the road, but keep the vision wide. If the rider can't do this, chances are, they are riding over their heads. This comes out of Code's Twist of the Wrist.

4. Too Fast: Love the speed? Then I suggest 2 things: one is start doing track days and perhaps get into racing with our local AFM club racing. There's a whole new world of speed out there that they have no idea about. Most riders that start to go fast on the racetrack then calm down and mellow out on the streets.

 

[mookiera]

Motorcyclists create their own problems, contributing to many--if not most--of their own deaths. Here's what I found about Bay Area sportbike deaths in 2006:

Of the 27 fatal sportbike crashes, 19 were clearly caused by riders, 2 were clearly caused by drivers, 5 were caused by a combination of rider and driver actions, and 1 was a shit-happens incident where a motorcyclist was caught up in a 9-vehicle melee resulting from debris dropped in heavy freeway traffic. In other words, 24 of the 27 sportbike deaths that occurred in the Bay Area in 2006 could have been prevented by the rider.

What contributions did riders make to those 24 preventable crashes?

• In 7, the motorcycle ran wide in curve and hit an oncoming vehicle, guardrail, tree, fence, or other fixed object.
• In 2, a stunt went wrong.
• In 2, the rider made an unsafe pass and hit, in one case, the vehicle being passed as is turned left, and in the other case an oncoming vehicle.
• In 2, the rider ran a red light and hit a crossing vehicle. One was running from police.

In the remaining 11 crashes, "excessive speed" was cited. But that doesn't tell us much because 100mph could be perfectly safe in one situation and 25 could be deadly in another. So I looked into these crashes in more detail to find out how speed contributed.

• In 5, the rider was speeding in the presence of traffic and hit a turning or crossing vehicle. In some of these, the driver also contributed by failing to yield right of way.
• In 4, the rider lost control of the motorcycle on a straight road and hit either an oncoming vehicle or a fixed object.
• In 1, a drunk running from police lost control and hit a curb, signpost, and tree.
• In 1, at 100mph, the motorcycle rear-ended a car traveling at 70mph on the freeway.

If there's a lesson here, it's that sportbike riders make their own trouble; they're usually not victims of other motorists' errors.​

Spring 2008 started out with an extraordinary number of motorcyclist deaths compared to previous years. In fact, that's what prompted budman to launch the 1Rider initiative that's now underway. The number of March/April incidents was so shocking that I kept track of them. Most were caused by riders, not drivers.

1. March 14: [name snipped], 20, of East Palo Alto was killed on 101 near Marsh when his Suzuki rear-ended another vehicle.
   
   
2. March 18: [name snipped], 43, of Corte Madera was killed when a hit-and-run driver in a pickup crossed the centerline in a sharp turn on Panoramic Highway near Stinson Beach and hit his Ducati. The driver was later arrested and charged with felony vehicular manslaughter.
   
   
3. March 21: [name snipped], a 12-year-old Napa boy, was killed when a 90-year-old woman driver turned left in front of his father's Kawasaki Concours, the vehicles collided, and the boy was thrown into the car's windshield.
   
   
4. March 22: [name snipped], 22, of San Francisco was killed on Skyline in San Mateo County when he lowsided into an oncoming pickup.
   
   
5. March 23: [name snipped], 26, of San Jose was killed on Highway 1 near Tunitas Creek when an oncoming vehicle crossed the centerline and hit the vehicle just ahead of [name snipped], triggering a chain reaction that he was tragically caught up in.
   
   
6. March 23: [name snipped], 52, of San Jose was killed when he lost control of his Harley on Highway 85 in San Jose after clipping a slower moving vehicle.
   
   
7. March 27: [name snipped], 21, of Hayward was killed on 880 in Fremont when, while riding with a friend, he lost control and hit the center divider.
   
   
8. March 27: [name snipped], 48, of Citrus Heights was killed when his Harley hit another vehicle while lane-splitting on I-80 in Fairfield.
   
   
9. March 30: [name snipped], 37, of San Jose was killed in an early-morning single vehicle crash of unknown cause on 101 in San Jose.
   
   
10. April 2: [name snipped], 18, of Rohnert Park was killed in an early morning crash near Cotati after running off the road in a curve and hitting a tree.
    
    
11. April 4:[name snipped], 29, of Alameda was killed on Highway 9 in Santa Cruz County when he lost control of his Suzuki in a right-hand turn and collided with an oncoming pickup.
    
    
12. April 5: [name snipped], 25, of Watsonville was killed on Old San Jose Road near Soquel when his Honda collided with a car entering the road from a business.
    
    
13. April 6: [name snipped], 42, of Hercules was killed on Bear Creek Road in Contra Costa County when he lost control of his Suzuki in a turn and hit a guardrail
    
    
14. April 6: An unidentified San Francisco man was killed on Richmond Parkway in Richmond when he lost control of his motorcycle and hit a tree.
    
    
15. April 9: [name snipped], 65, of Geyserville was killed on Alexander Valley Road north of Healdsburg when he lost control of his motorcycle and hit a utility pole.

Any effort to reduce the number of motorcycle deaths would most productively focus its attention on motorcyclists, not drivers.

You also posted this spring of 2008 info with your 2006 info?
The 2008 info tells a different(and also incomplete) story.
Yes, motorcyclists as a group have much to learn and subsets of that group
have a tremendous amount to learn and can drasticly skew the statistics of the group as a whole.
Statistics, however, can be used to support extraordinary conclusions.
The statistics that you provided for 2008 could be used to say that January and February are the safest months to ride. I certainly don't believe that and I don't think anyone else does either. However, it might be worth investigating all the factors that came together in those months (with worse than average weather conditions) that resulted in no fatalities. Or, were
there fatalities in those months that you decided not to put in your 'study'?
If so, what were your reasons for omitting them?
Just asking.

 

[jbt56]

Doc, you make some excellent points! Very valid. The one potential problem with your proposed solutions, (IMHO) is #2. That goes back to my earlier post about most of us considering ourselves to be "great" drivers (and riders). For people who think at all, your solutions are awesome. For the majority, your words are nothing but clicks and buzzes in their ears. That huge number of riders and drivers simply doesn't care. After all, they're such great drivers, THEY'LL never crash.

 

[DataDan]

The 2008 info tells a different(and also incomplete) story.

No, it tells a similar story to the 2006 sportbike data: Riders bear most of the responsibility for fatal crashes.

The statistics that you provided for 2008 could be used to say that January and February are the safest months to ride.

I didn't post "statistics" for 2008. I posted summaries of news accounts of 15 crashes that occurred in the Bay Area in the first month of spring. I didn't select those 15 arbitrarily to depict rider incompetence. I collected them simply because of the shitstorm of crashes that was occurring at the time. To my knowledge, those were the only ones that that appeared in the news.

If you doubt my assertion about riders being responsible for most motorcycling deaths, you can refute it with contrary data. I'm not married to the idea; its just where the facts have pointed me. And contradictory facts will point me in another direction.

 

[Traq]

If you doubt my assertion about riders being responsible for most motorcycling deaths, you can refute it with contrary data. I'm not married to the idea; its just where the facts have pointed me. And contradictory facts will point me in another direction.

Well you should be married to it. It is well established that the majority of motorcycle accidents are single vehicle (I've never seen accident statistics that show otherwise). Without an accident there isn't an injury or fatality. Reduce accidents, reduce fatalities.

Focusing on the rider is therefore the best solution to have the most impact (i.e. where do we spend the money to get the best results). Public awareness campaigns are all well and good to reduce accidents further, but we should take the obvious big steps first before going after the fine tuning.

IMO it is a silly example of failing to see the forest for the trees concentrating solely on fatalities.

 

[tzrider]

Well you should be married to it. It is well established that the majority of motorcycle accidents are single vehicle (I've never seen accident statistics that show otherwise). Without an accident there isn't an injury or fatality. Reduce accidents, reduce fatalities.

Is it as well established that the majority of fatalities are also single vehicle? I don't know either way, but intuition says it's likely that moto fatalities are more frequent in accidents involving other vehicles. If true, focusing on reducing accidents where other vehicles are involved could have a greater impact on fatalities than focusing on riders who lowside in turns.

 

[sidewazzz]

simple
CC limit per year licensed

 

[Traq]

Is it as well established that the majority of fatalities are also single vehicle? I don't know either way, but intuition says it's likely that moto fatalities are more frequent in accidents involving other vehicles. If true, focusing on reducing accidents where other vehicles are involved could have a greater impact on fatalities than focusing on riders who lowside in turns.

It doesn't matter. The point is that it is stupid to concentrate solely on fatalities.

Medical bills are a lot more expensive than pine boxes.

 

[rean1mator]

so more numbers would be nice.

What is the relationship between the number of motorcycle riders on the road to motorcycle deaths? has that ratio changed through the years? I know there are a record number of riders on the road today with the cost of gas as a big contributor.

I think it boils alot down to both rider and car driver awareness.

 

[tzrider]

It doesn't matter. The point is that it is stupid to concentrate solely on fatalities.

Given that the OP's focus is on reducing fatalities, you can try to persuade him that he's on the wrong track.

Medical bills are a lot more expensive than pine boxes.

Fatalities get vastly more news coverage. That could come to have more impact on you than increased medical costs from motorcycle crashes.

 

[ThermalStone]

I got tired of reading after about five pages, but I haven't seen this idea so far.

Go after the dealers who sell bikes. No sale of a bike under 600cc without proof of a permit, no sale of a bike over 600cc without proof of license. Require purchasers to buy a DOT helmet or present proof that they own one. Fine the dealers if they don't comply.

For private sales, it should be easy to check if the purchaser of a bike has a permit. No permit, no DMV registration, meaning that you will be an easier target for police to pick up on the street with your expired tags.

I think that the problem isn't speed or alcohol. There are already ways to deal with this and there is no reason to think that motorcyclists speed or drive drunk more often than car drivers (barring a study that tells me otherwise.)

The problem is one of skill and training. Unlicensed motorcyclists are less likely to have had formal training. More license checkpoints that target both bikes and cars, but that are trained to look for M endorsements on rider's licenses would be a good place to start. Keeping motorcycles out of the hands of unlicensed riders is the best and least controversial way to improve safety.

My ideas aren't foolproof, but they should reduce fatalities by a noticeable amount while being easy to implement. Few properly licensed riders will complain about them either.

 

[Cyclesuzy]

I got tired of reading after about five pages, but I haven't seen this idea so far.

Go after the dealers who sell bikes. No sale of a bike under 600cc without proof of a permit, no sale of a bike over 600cc without proof of license. Require purchasers to buy a DOT helmet or present proof that they own one. Fine the dealers if they don't comply.

For private sales, it should be easy to check if the purchaser of a bike has a permit. No permit, no DMV registration, meaning that you will be an easier target for police to pick up on the street with your expired tags.

I think that the problem isn't speed or alcohol. There are already ways to deal with this and there is no reason to think that motorcyclists speed or drive drunk more often than car drivers (barring a study that tells me otherwise.)

The problem is one of skill and training. Unlicensed motorcyclists are less likely to have had formal training. More license checkpoints that target both bikes and cars, but that are trained to look for M endorsements on rider's licenses would be a good place to start. Keeping motorcycles out of the hands of unlicensed riders is the best and least controversial way to improve safety.

My ideas aren't foolproof, but they should reduce fatalities by a noticeable amount while being easy to implement. Few properly licensed riders will complain about them either.

Good idea but discussed ad nauseum on pages 6-whatever.

 

[DocWong]

Doc, you make some excellent points! Very valid. The one potential problem with your proposed solutions, (IMHO) is #2. That goes back to my earlier post about most of us considering ourselves to be "great" drivers (and riders). For people who think at all, your solutions are awesome. For the majority, your words are nothing but clicks and buzzes in their ears. That huge number of riders and drivers simply doesn't care. After all, they're such great drivers, THEY'LL never crash.

Yes, there are a small percentage of riders who "know it all" and thus will not progress any further in their riding and no one will reach them. But I'm not concerned with that as there are so many riders that do want to improve.

#2 of my most common riding errors and solution is: Continue to improve on riding skills. This is a lifelong activity. Riders that continue to improve on their skills feel much more confident, smooth and safe riding.

 

[stovepipe]

And I'm not trying to toot my own horn here regarding our East Bay Cone Practice (and you are more than welcome to come up and join us this coming Saturday). Still what if the CHP promoted, in concert with other local municipal police depts. and sheriff's offices, free monthly or quarterly motorcycle cone practices? Would the alarming rate of rider accidents, injuries and fatalities then lessen to some degree? [Shrug] Rider accidents will happen, no matter the rider's experience, as riding is dependent on rider judgment as well as rider skill, rider understanding of road conditions, and bike soundness. Still cone practice would provide several benefits:

+1000

So Cal has been experimenting with random check points that specifically targets motorcycles. Primarily looking for un licensed riders. Like sobriety check points.

Also, not sure if this is down in ink yet, but politicians in California are looking at legislation that will make lane sharing illegal. Because of those who choose to do it recklessly. So once again, a few bad apples are going to spoil it for everyone. Something to think about next time you lane share going 70 mph in stopped traffic.