The question...... (How to decrease motorcycle fatalities)

[DataDan]

My suggestions for correction and the reasons why I do the Doc Wong Riding Clinics:

1. Riding Beyond One's Skill Level: Know the various symptoms of riding beyond one's skill level, learn to recognize them and click down the speeds.

This is an excellent suggestion. I think I once tried to start a thread about "what are the telltale signs that you've reached one of your limits?" but didn't get any takers.

What do you think, Doc? What are the symptoms? There are, of course, different limits--vision (not eyesight, but dynamic skill), steering, confidence in grip or lean angle, etc.--and each one should be recognizable by its own effects. What are the ones you've identified?

I think this topic would be valuable as a separate thread, maybe in Training, with the mods' permission.

 

[Enchanter]

I think I once tried to start a thread about "what are the telltale signs that you've reached one of your limits?" but didn't get any takers.

I think this topic would be valuable as a separate thread, maybe in Training, with the mods' permission.

Do it! I'll compile my 'tells' and add it to your thread. I can add the ones that I see when training riders too.

 

[ThermalStone]

Good idea but discussed ad nauseum on pages 6-whatever.

Someone actually read all this?

 

[Coffae]

There have been many ideas presented on this thread that can fit into 4 categories:

More Legislation:
1. Tiered Licensing
2. Stiffer penalies
3. License and Insurance presented before a new bike purchase
4. Lower BAC Limit for motorcycles
5. Lower Insurance rates per school
6. Requiring ATGATT
7. Safety Checkpoints
8. Undercover bikes with video

Education:
1. Trackday passes (yea--I am a new rider, and need one)
2. Education of Drivers (Car)
3. Require MSF and kill the DMV Tests
4. Safety Flyers
5. Virtual Motorcycle classes (electronic games)
6. Ride2Die.com site
7. Free training / Doc Wong
8. Get the CHP to wear leather to promote it
9. Bulletin Boards with moto stats (not MotoGP stats...)
10. Video with information for new/returning riders

Infrastructure:
1. Motorcycle friendly lanes
2. Repairing road surfaces that are dangerous to riders

Acceptance of the way things are:
1. People will be people--those that die will be the ones who are careless, reckless, overconfident, unknowing or unfortunate.

Personally, I don't think more legislation is the answer, as they have all been examined before. Perhaps changing the BAC (maybe to zero), threats of undercover video and cops in ATGATT is something that hasn't been given enough attention though.

I believe that education is key. Whenever someone talks to me about how they have been considering riding I ask, "Do you like it so much that you are willing to commit a whole lot of time, effort and money to be safe at it? If you dream of riding every day, then it will be worth it. Otherwise, I would consider another sport."

The attitude is, "Well I drive a car, how much harder can it be?". Folks should liken it to mountain climbing. If you make a mistake, you may not live to see tomorrow.

Learning to ride is a major commitment. It is not simply donning the leather and turning the key. A potential rider should be willing to make sacrifices such as investing in training and riding in a controlled manner practicing skills for many many miles, before they can ride like Rossi (this is meant for the wannabe canyon carvers).

Therefore, there needs to be a way to have a beginning or potential rider a way to see where the rubber meets the road. I think part of the licensing should be a DVD video that they should purchase, much like the "Red Asphalt" movies we used to see. Incorporate into it tips, warning signs and tricks to being safe. In the middle of the video (in varying places in each video), put a coupon for a trackday, or a Starbucks coffee.

BTW, where's 1Rider?

 

[Coffae]

Yes, there are a small percentage of riders who "know it all" and thus will not progress any further in their riding and no one will reach them. But I'm not concerned with that as there are so many riders that do want to improve.

#2 of my most common riding errors and solution is: Continue to improve on riding skills. This is a lifelong activity. Riders that continue to improve on their skills feel much more confident, smooth and safe riding.

This is an excellent suggestion. I think I once tried to start a thread about "what are the telltale signs that you've reached one of your limits?" but didn't get any takers.

What do you think, Doc? What are the symptoms? There are, of course, different limits--vision (not eyesight, but dynamic skill), steering, confidence in grip or lean angle, etc.--and each one should be recognizable by its own effects. What are the ones you've identified?

I think this topic would be valuable as a separate thread, maybe in Training, with the mods' permission.

I attended a Doc Wong class and not only did he (and the other instructors) instruct us about body position--which was a big help, but he also said some things I will never forget.

"You can consider that for every crash, you got away with a mistake 99 times before it." Meaning that a crash = 100 times you have blown it. Do not take crashes lightly.

"If you are scaring yourself, there is a good reason for it. Slow down, and ride less aggressively."

Thanks Doc!

 

[Enchanter]

Personally, I don't think more legislation is the answer, as they have all been examined before.

I believe that education is key. Whenever someone talks to me about how they have been considering riding I ask, "Do you like it so much that you are willing to commit a whole lot of time, effort and money to be safe at it? If you dream of riding every day, then it will be worth it. Otherwise, I would consider another sport."

The attitude is, "Well I drive a car, how much harder can it be?". Folks should liken it to mountain climbing. If you make a mistake, you may not live to see tomorrow.

Learning to ride is a major commitment. It is not simply donning the leather and turning the key. A potential rider should be willing to make sacrifices such as investing in training and riding in a controlled manner practicing skills for many many miles, before they can ride like Rossi (this is meant for the wannabe canyon carvers).[/QUOTE]

Good stuff here!

 

[license2ill]

PERFECTION!

Yep, that oughta do it.

As long as threading the needle is the only answer, the community will continue to lose, and look like silly victims to the outside world. Tatoo a tear drop to your eye.

 

[Rel]

First of all, I want to thank everyone for the great info here.

Secondly, I'm working on putting all this together and we'll see where it goes.

I know education is the first step, but how do we get people to understand that this is really in their favor?

Would new riders really care?

 

[mookiera]

What is the relationship between the number of motorcycle riders on the road to motorcycle deaths? has that ratio changed through the years? I know there are a record number of riders on the road today with the cost of gas as a big contributor.

These could be the most important questions so far.
While the number of deaths may be up, the deaths per mile or deaths
per rider may have indeed gone down. In general terms, if ridership
is up 25% and deaths are up 25%, the death rate has remained the same.
With the info we have been provided here we cannot say in fact that
the situation is actually getting worse. It might even be improving.

Will the state review the answers to the questions above before they
decide they need to come down hard on bikers? I sure hope so, but
my life experience says they are more likely to have a knee-jerk response
to 1 statistic, when they have no clue what the big picture is.

Look for lane sharing to be closely scrutinized by people that will
never understand that it can save lives when utilized properly.

 

[DataDan]

While the number of deaths may be up, the deaths per mile or deaths per rider may have indeed gone down. In general terms, if ridership is up 25% and deaths are up 25%, the death rate has remained the same. With the info we have been provided here we cannot say in fact that the situation is actually getting worse. It might even be improving.

See this post in a recent thread about a Murky News article similar to the KPIX article quoted in the opening post in this thread.

The California motorcycle death rate per 100,000 registered motorcycles was fairly constant from 2000-2006. Data from 2007 won't be available for a few months. Data from 2008 is a long way off.

I don't know of any mileage estimates that would make it possible to calculate deaths per mile.

 

[acidjzaz]

Umm tiered licensing..

and more info about motorcycles introduced when people are getting drivers licenses

Like lane sharing,
what to watch out for ..,
why making u turns while driving around in san francisco on the weekends with your granparents in the car. while looking at the sights, can be fatal.

 

[Traq]

First of all, I want to thank everyone for the great info here.

Secondly, I'm working on putting all this together and we'll see where it goes.

I know education is the first step, but how do we get people to understand that this is really in their favor?

Would new riders really care?

No, they won't. That's why training needs to be mandatory.

Plus, tiered licensing would be fought tooth and nail by motorcycle manufacturers...I mean, could you imagine? That 45 yr old lawyer going through a mid-life crisis now has to spend a couple years on low cc/hp bikes before he can go blow a wad of cash on a chromed out Harley?! UNTHINKABLE!

 

[mookiera]

See this post in a recent thread about a Murky News article similar to the KPIX article quoted in the opening post in this thread.

The California motorcycle death rate per 100,000 registered motorcycles was fairly constant from 2000-2006. Data from 2007 won't be available for a few months. Data from 2008 is a long way off.

I don't know of any mileage estimates that would make it possible to calculate deaths per mile.

Funny how that chart didn't support the conclusions of the Merc News article.
So, given that the ratio of deaths/riders is remaining constant while bikes become ever more powerful and traffic becomes more congested every year, maybe the training and gears and bikes have all actually been improving every year.
Hence, stop the knee jerk reaction to make sweeping changes and increase fines and fees and mandating things that will not be mandated for any other users of the road.
Focus on the things that are most likely to help:
1)Training - Many people work on their skills constantly
2)Gear - Who thinks the industry isn't working hard on this?
3)Machines - Mixed bag here, the industry is constantly working on safety and more power.

 

[Ant]

I believe that education is key. Whenever someone talks to me about how they have been considering riding I ask, "Do you like it so much that you are willing to commit a whole lot of time, effort and money to be safe at it? If you dream of riding every day, then it will be worth it. Otherwise, I would consider another sport."

The attitude is, "Well I drive a car, how much harder can it be?". Folks should liken it to mountain climbing. If you make a mistake, you may not live to see tomorrow.

Learning to ride is a major commitment. It is not simply donning the leather and turning the key. A potential rider should be willing to make sacrifices such as investing in training and riding in a controlled manner practicing skills for many many miles, before they can ride like Rossi (this is meant for the wannabe canyon carvers).

Good stuff here![/QUOTE]

This is what kills me about some new riders:

"check out my new bike!" $10,000
"got a badass helmet with graphics!" $600
"wanna see my new leather jacket?" $500
"these gloves are the shit dude!" $200
"just ordered a pipe and fender eliminator!" $600

"have you taken the MSF yet"

"no dude, how much does it cost??"

"around $250"

"dude, $250?? That's a lot of money!"

 

[Mello33]

I am of the opinion that legislation should be created to make it illegal to sell a motorcycle to someone without out an M1.

Excluding private person deals, but dealerships should require licenses.

Excellent point and just a permit from the written test should not be acceptable either. Actual seat time at least from the MSF course. Non-educated riders are not always the blame either as cagers contribute alot to the numbers.

 

[vaara]

Wow... 12 pages already, and the "nanny/nazi" name-callers are nowhere to be found. The last time tiered licensing was brought up, several people made it clear, in no uncertain terms, that NO regulation of ANY kind affecting ANY rider should EVER be tolerated, and that anyone who's concerned with reducing the number of motorcycle fatalities is a simpering ninny who probably still sleeps with his or her blankie.

 

[Mello33]

Look for lane sharing to be closely scrutinized by people that will
never understand that it can save lives when utilized properly.

I can see this happening "but" they also need to educate cagers possibly placing something in the DMV handbook that educates the general public lane sharing does occur. I may be wrong but I have not seen anything that pertains to lane sharing when getting a CDL.

 

[Joebar4000]

I just want to clear something up on tiered licensing, as there seems to be a lot of misquoted and misargued information, from those both in favor, and against.

Tiered licensing doesn't stop an old fart getting a big bike.

It simply forces them to take a *really, really* hard test, to get a big bike, right now.

OR, they can ride on a smaller bike for a coupla years, and take an easy test.

They have to take something akin to the MSF before they can do either.

For youngins, they can't ride a big bike right away, no matter what. But we're talking the under 20's.

Right, now that's cleared up, I'm a fan of tiered licensing, and it's been shown to reduce fatalities in Europe.

However, before they had tiered licensing in place, they had/have one TENTH as many accidents due to drink driving.

We just recently discussed this - 4% of accidents due to DUI in the UK, 40% here (!!!).

Most of the sober accident causers here, aren't licensed.

So, what's the point of putting in place a hard test when most people don't even do the stupid DMV one, and/or are drunk?

It would suck to put it in place, even though I think it would work, because it would barely change the stats (by percentage) and give the naysayers all kinds of ammo - "It didn't make any difference and it cost a fortune" is what they'll say, and they'd be right.

BUT, if you fix the drink riding, and basic license requirement (if you're caught without an M1, impound the bike. You have 30 days to pass your M1 or it's crushed. Or whatever.) and THEN put in tiered licensing, THEN it will have a relatively large impact - percentate-wise, because you already 'fixed' 40-80% of the other issues first.

If tiered licensing made a 2% impact if you implemented it right now, then it would make a >10% impact if you had fixed all the other issues.

I finally see Berto's point - 'what are you trying to fix here?'. Fix the big issues first, as it will make it easier to see the impact of the 'icing' stuff later.

Sure, those young riders on big bikes form a large part of the stats, but that's a peculiarity to the bay area, and most weren't licensed anyway! So, again, what good is a tough test, that they still won't take?

Start throwing the book at current non-licensed riders. Make it jail-time for a second offence. They have NO place being on the road until they can pass the test. Shit, if they can't pass the stupid DMV test, do you want to be on the road with them? Fack...

 

[mookiera]

I just want to clear something up on tiered licensing, as there seems to be a lot of misquoted and misargued information, from those both in favor, and against.

Tiered licensing doesn't stop an old fart getting a big bike.

It simply forces them to take a *really, really* hard test, to get a big bike, right now.

OR, they can ride on a smaller bike for a coupla years, and take an easy test.

They have to take something akin to the MSF before they can do either.

For youngins, they can't ride a big bike right away, no matter what. But we're talking the under 20's.

Right, now that's cleared up, I'm a fan of tiered licensing, and it's been shown to reduce fatalities in Europe.

However, before they had tiered licensing in place, they had/have one TENTH as many accidents due to drink driving.

We just recently discussed this - 4% of accidents due to DUI in the UK, 40% here (!!!).

Most of the sober accident causers here, aren't licensed.

So, what's the point of putting in place a hard test when most people don't even do the stupid DMV one, and/or are drunk?

It would suck to put it in place, even though I think it would work, because it would barely change the stats (by percentage) and give the naysayers all kinds of ammo - "It didn't make any difference and it cost a fortune" is what they'll say, and they'd be right.

BUT, if you fix the drink riding, and basic license requirement (if you're caught without an M1, impound the bike. You have 30 days to pass your M1 or it's crushed. Or whatever.) and THEN put in tiered licensing, THEN it will have a relatively large impact - percentate-wise, because you already 'fixed' 40-80% of the other issues first.

If tiered licensing made a 2% impact if you implemented it right now, then it would make a >10% impact if you had fixed all the other issues.

I finally see Berto's point - 'what are you trying to fix here?'. Fix the big issues first, as it will make it easier to see the impact of the 'icing' stuff later.

Sure, those young riders on big bikes form a large part of the stats, but that's a peculiarity to the bay area, and most weren't licensed anyway! So, again, what good is a tough test, that they still won't take?

Start throwing the book at current non-licensed riders. Make it jail-time for a second offence. They have NO place being on the road until they can pass the test. Shit, if they can't pass the stupid DMV test, do you want to be on the road with them? Fack...

How about applying that tiered licensing to drivers?

 

[Coffae]

First of all, I want to thank everyone for the great info here.

Secondly, I'm working on putting all this together and we'll see where it goes.

I know education is the first step, but how do we get people to understand that this is really in their favor?

Would new riders really care?

The one thing you/we have in our favor is that most riders have heard of someone sustaining horrible injuries or death from riding a motorcycle. The stories are all around us, our friends, the news, our parents, this forum...

How to capitalize on this perception? Well, your question can make the assumption that most folks who ride want to get home after a day of riding. They just need the "education vehicle" to get them there.

Analyze the obstacles to someone's objections to education; should it be expense or time, or lack of kewlness. Find a way to lessen these or somehow sweeten the pot.

And in the end, you can lead a horse to water...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Second, changing perception is the biggest hurdle of all. "The big bad manly man who rides a bike and breaks all speed limits" has got to go... "Swinging a leg over your fancy steed with no prior training because your buddy did it" has go to go...

...and sorry to say "The ultimate freedom image of the helmetless biker with the wind flying through his hair" sadly that too has got to go...