The question...... (How to decrease motorcycle fatalities)

[Dubbington]

there it is...probably mentioned dozens of times. In no way should it be easier to get a motorcycle license than a drivers license. I understand there is not a 'motorcycle driving school' or 'motorcycler's ed' in high school but some education, coursework and training should be required prior to licensing. Also, I think an age and engine size restriction is a good idea.

A contributor imho:

The ease in acquiring high performance bikes by young innexperienced riders. For a very small monthly payment and without even needing an M1 or proof of insurance you can ride off with a bike.

 

[Cyclesuzy]

Good to know.

I can see this issue "Having an M1 license prior to buying a motorcycle" being shot down because motorcycle dealers and manufactures will see sales go down, and they cant have that.

I agree that the dealerships/manufacturers will no doubt hire a strong lobbying firm to stop any such law from being passed. I still think it is worth discussing with a legislator.

I realize that education is a huge part of this issue but realistically how likely is education (either to riders or to drivers) to be effective. There are tons of literature out there on how to ride responsibly and take it track day, etc., etc. etc. but if some young person were forced to get their M1 before going out and getting a bike, that may force him/her to stop and really think about what they're getting into. I just see no real way to enforce education onto riders but you could stop them from buying their death toy without out proper licensing and insurance.

 

[Ant]

I agree that the dealerships/manufacturers will no doubt hire a strong lobbying firm to stop any such law from being passed. I still think it is worth discussing with a legislator.

I realize that education is a huge part of this issue but realistically how likely is education (either to riders or to drivers) to be effective. There are tons of literature out there on how to ride responsibly and take it track day, etc., etc. etc. but if some young person were forced to get their M1 before going out and getting a bike, that may force him/her to stop and really think about what they're getting into. I just see no real way to enforce education onto riders but you could stop them from buying their death toy without out proper licensing and insurance.

If they were smart they would endorse that type of legislation. They could set up thier own MSF type courses and hook thier clientel from the get go.

 

[Raz0rback]

I think the MSF class would be a good idea to be required. I've known a few people crashing and they hadn't taken the MSF class, I've known none that have crashed that have taken the MSF class.. Now of course just because you take the class doesn't mean your not going to go down, just shows maybe you do learn a lot more by taking the class rather then self-taught.

 

[Var]

as I've said in other threads, I'm for tiered licensing. Statistics support the fact that it wouldn't likely decrease deaths, at least not in the immediate future.

I think the question should be, how can we increase the skill level of the motoring public? How can we provide(ie: legislate and implement) more training and education to everyone who wants the privalege to drive. Call me insensitive, but I don't believe in reducing deaths in anything in the world. We should strive to demand higher standards and quality of living rather than holding everyone's hand to ensure that we all make it. It's a downright unrealistic expectation and something I don't believe in anyways. But I do believe as an eventual bi-product of tiered licensing will be that riding/driving will not be treated like a joke in this country, and that will eventually lead to more educated, trained, serious, and living riders. This standard has to apply to all licensed drivers for it to work. The way I see it, your average teenaged girl who just got a car , or old person who doesn't have the reflexes any longer is equally if not more dangerous than someone pulling wheelies in traffic. The common theme is that they shouldn't be on the road in the first place.

 

[tzrider]

I am of the opinion that legislation should be created to make it illegal to sell a motorcycle to someone without out an M1.

Excluding private person deals, but dealerships should require licenses.

I'd still like to know why everybody is talking about this. Rel, maybe I missed it, but I didn't see that being unlicensed was a factor in any of the accidents you referenced. If you're going to put time and resources into something, apply them to something that matters.

There's an interesting book that more people should read called "Normal Accidents," by Charles Perrow. The premise is something that you may not want to hear: In complex systems, a certain number of accidents are inevitable. Perrow states that accidents become unavoidable in systems where:

1. The components have complex interactions
2. The components are tightly coupled, where an effect on one component will have a multiplied effect on others.

The book does not state that you cannot have an effect on the overall statistics, nor does it state that an individual cannot improve their own odds. It does, however, acknowledge that some number of accidents are normal and that some system designs that attempt to reduce accidents end up having the opposite effect because they make the system more complex.

An understanding of the material would be useful as a backdrop for planning or selecting measures to try to reduce the number of fatal motorcycle accidents. Motorcycling is absolutely within the scope of the book, even though it is not specifically discussed. It's a high risk activity that takes place in a complex, dynamic environment.

Some of the things people are talking about in the thread could hardly hurt, but others may not be that useful. As I stated earlier, accident causes are often very complex, considered individually. The statistics we usually have available are rarely specific enough to act on in and of themselves.

The Crash Analysis forum offers a number of good cases in point. You can read about the situation the rider was in and, after some discussion, there are sometimes a handful of things the rider realizes he might do differently if given a do-over. If an agency had investigated any of these accidents and the data were available to us in the usual form accident stats usually are, we would probably draw very different conclusions about programs or courses of action to reduce the likelihood of recurrence because we wouldn't have the specifics.

It's a little surreal to hear specific suggestions for legislation, programs or sending people to track days in the name of safety, without having heard much about why these accidents happened in the first place.

 

[Rel]

I dont have that answer, but I can get it. I know that there were some, three I think, that did not have M1 endorsements. Remember, these are the ones who didnt make it.

I'd still like to know why everybody is talking about this. Rel, maybe I missed it, but I didn't see that being unlicensed was a factor in any of the accidents you referenced.

 

[tzrider]

I dont have that answer, but I can get it. I know that there were some, three I think, that did not have M1 endorsements. Remember, these are the ones who didnt make it.

Right. You remind me that in the book I referenced, one key point is that there is immense value in analyzing the close calls, not just the fatalities.

 

[cyclecyborg]

reduce the amount of cages on the road, by reducing the number of foreign languages that the tests are written in. now does it make sense to allow someone to take the test in there native language when all our road signs, hazard signs etc.. are in english?
after a certain age seinoirs would have to take there tests yearly to include driving portion. Like they dont have the time to do that once a year? think of the aditional monies that would be brought into dmv on there testing and license renewels.

 

[Rel]

Its the close calls we should worry about as well....

Right. You remind me that in the book I referenced, one key point is that there is immense value in analyzing the close calls, not just the fatalities.

 

[Baptistro]

I'd still like to know why everybody is talking about this. Rel, maybe I missed it, but I didn't see that being unlicensed was a factor in any of the accidents you referenced. If you're going to put time and resources into something, apply them to something that matters.

There is currently no easy way to tell whether the licensed riders did or did not have any training, particularly MSF training. One thing that is being discussed is tracking the DL389 (that is earned specifically by successful completion of the MSF BRC) with the driver's license so that the DMV would have a record, for statistical purposes as well as other benefits, and see whether training makes a difference or not. The general consensus, is that training lowers the number of incidents, now it is a matter of backing up that claim.

I believe that the issue is multi faceted. I don't believe that riders are always 100% accountable for incidents. I do believe that in most single vehicle incidents, rider error is a primary factor. We need to develop better riders, and better riding conditions. The first can be addressed by additional training, education, perhaps licensing restrictions, etc. Infrastructure is unlikely to change quickly, so that leaves those sharing the road. I believe educating non riders is another facet we need to address that is sorely lacking. As the numbers of motorcyclists continues to increase due to growing numbers or new riders as well as re-entry riders, educating the non-riding public on how to deal with this change in the makeup of users of the roadway is essential. Finally, if this is not a trend, but a long term shift in the populace due to either improved perception of two wheeled motorized travel, or merely a shift necessitated by economic times, design and implementation of roadways with motorcyclists taken into consideration is a must.

 

[Rel]

My goal is to reduce the number of deaths on the roadways. I think its time to draw a line in the sand and start working with the agencies and persons in place to effect change.

This is the first step.

Where will it go from here? I have no idea, but my goal is to have a major roll out for the new riding season (March or April). If we can, as a group, contribute to saving one life, isn't it all worth it?

 

[Baptistro]

Here's the problem with specifying decreasing motorcycle related deaths. Due to our vulnerability, any accident on a motorcycle has the potential for death.

 

[Rel]

True, but as it has been said.... An accident that is foreseeable is preventable.

Here's the problem with specifying decreasing motorcycle related deaths. Due to our vulnerability, any accident on a motorcycle has the potential for death.

 

[DataDan]

FYI, of the 71 riders involved in fatal crashes in the Bay Area in 2006:

• 45 (63%) had valid licenses with M endorsements
• 13 (18%) had valid licenses with no M
• 10 (14%) were revoked, suspended, expired, or unlicensed
• 3 (4%) had no license info reported

 

[Twisted]

FYI, of the 71 riders involved in fatal crashes in the Bay Area in 2006:

• 45 (63%) had valid licenses with M endorsements
• 13 (18%) had valid licenses with no M
• 10 (14%) were revoked, suspended, expired, or unlicensed
• 3 (4%) had no license info reported

It is probably obvious, but of those you quoted before, how many of those where the rider was at fault were caused by those with and with out M endorsements?

Just interested in seeing if those without M endorsements were predominantly at fault or if there was no correlation.

Also, DataDan, curious of your thoughts on something. Reading the data from the website I posted earlier it appears a large % of accidents were the results of driver error.

"6. In the multiple vehicle accidents, the driver of the other vehicle violated the motorcycle right-of-way and caused the accident in two-thirds of those accidents.

7. The failure of motorists to detect and recognize motorcycles in traffic is the predominating cause of motorcycle accidents. The driver of the other vehicle involved in collision with the motorcycle did not see the motorcycle before the collision, or did not see the motorcycle until too late to avoid the collision."

However, the data you provided really pointed to rider error as the majority cause.

Is this just a difference in collection of the data or am I misinterpreting the data?

 

[Joebar4000]

1. Make the MSF the only test. The DMV practical is a joke. Prevention is better than cure...

2. Undercover bikes with video cameras on 9/35 etc. and PUBLICIZE that they are in use.

3. Hang out, outside bars with cruisers and pull them over when they're obviously drunk.

4. Bulletin board at 4 corners, Alices, etc. detailing all accidents that year, what age of rider and what kind of bike. Include car accidents.

5. Get the CHP into leather and stop preaching to those that wear leather that they 'must be out for a race'. When I wear leather, I'm being responsible and trying to look after my skin.

6. Unlicensed riders are not insured, in effect. Throw the book at them.

7. Get all local enforcement to set a good example by obeying the rules of the road themselves, and start handing out more 'prizes' for dangerous driving habits, not just for speeding.


As has been noted, it's poor judgement and lack of experience killing people, not so much plain speed, but it still seems like the ONLY focus from law enforcement is on speed, whereas you can tailgate, drift out of lane, block the passing lane, dribble onto the freeway at 10mph to your hearts content - as long as you never speed, and you'll never get a ticket.

 

[}Dragon{]

My goal is to reduce the number of deaths on the roadways. I think its time to draw a line in the sand and start working with the agencies and persons in place to effect change.

This is the first step.

Where will it go from here? I have no idea, but my goal is to have a major roll out for the new riding season (March or April). If we can, as a group, contribute to saving one life, isn't it all worth it?

Why not do a d/l checkpoint up on the hill? Advertise WELL in advance and do it in a safe location.

 

[Caddywumpus]

the only way to definativly stop people from dying on bikes? outlaw bikes. Stop people from driving drunk? outlaw cars. shit happens. the dumb die out faster than the slow burners.

 

[Rel]

But they take out the non "dumb" ones too....

the only way to definativly stop people from dying on bikes? outlaw bikes. Stop people from driving drunk? outlaw cars. shit happens. the dumb die out faster than the slow burners.