Steering vs Counter-Steering: at what speed do you do which?

[sanjuro]

I'm giving a bicycle handling class and I was doing researching into slow-speed handling. There are many motorcycle videos on this topic, but believe or not, I found only one bicycle video, from Ireland and intended for young children.

When it comes to counter-steering, there are many motorcycle vids and the instructors are going at least 15mph, while many cyclists ride under 15mph at all times. Just FYI, counter-steering is rarely taught to cyclists for several reasons including basic handling is learned as children and initiating lean is very easy on lightweight bicycles. However, even bicycle instructors are often confused about counter-steering, explaining why it's rarely taught.

I found one video which explains counter-steering, which comes with a bait-click worthy title.

[YOUTUBE]9cNmUNHSBac[/YOUTUBE]

Before watching this video, I believed that you didn't need to counter-steer at slow speeds because you didn't need to initiate tire lean. Now I believe two-wheeled vehicles must initiate tire lean at any speed, but at slow speeds, it is not pure counter-steering which does this.

A rider has to turn slightly in the opposite direction before turning the wheel to the direction they want to go. The turn in the opposite direction is how tire lean is initiated, then what seems like pointing the tire is how to turn is actually returning the bike to an upright position as you finish the turn.

While all two wheeled vehicles are subject to the same physical dynamics, obviously the handling of let's say, a 20lb BMX bike is different than a 600lb cruiser. There's no hard rule about at what speed is counter-steering the only way to initiate tire lean.

Maybe my thoughts about counter-steering and tire lean when it comes to bicycle instruction aren't appropriate here (although completely applicable to motorcycles). However, I know if I mentioned this to cyclists, even experienced riders wouldn't all understand.

 

[budman]

I believe at slow parking lot speeds or starting a U Turn I am not counter steering to initiate the turn. So my answer would be 1-5mph generally.

 

[CDONA]

I have been thinking about this change of steering while riding for many years.
I tried to remember when I learned about counter steering, I do remember up in the Green Valley Highlands as a kid coasting down the hills.
I did know then, about the change due to speed.

I do believe it is all about centrifugal force making the gyro effect work with wheels.
Wheel weight, speed, and diameter are factors, that I'm learning thru the mini's 12" wheels.
To turn quickly, I need the speed down to let the turn happen over the gyro effect. Otherwise your turn needs to lean, with gyro.

It varies, , ,

 

[Enchanter]

This would be fairly easy to figure out by placing a rudimentary p @ DR_SLO) gauge or meter to the handlebars and frame of a bicycle and motorcycle. I’ve always wanted to do so, and it appears the timing is right.

Before moving forward, we should agree on a definition of terms so that we are sure that we’re communicating effectively.

I submit the following:
Countersteering is the front tire initially pointing in the opposite direction of the intended turn.
Direct steering is the front tire pointing in the intended direction.
Tire-lean IS vehicle lean, so can we agree to describe the lean of the bicycle or motorcycle and NOT the tire?

I’ll start designing the equipment and camera needed to document the test.

I’ll leave out my opinions on countersteering vs direct steering and speeds because I think it may cloud judgment and results.

 

[sanjuro]

I'll point a few differences between bicycles and motorcycles at slow speeds.

To teach how to operate a motorcycle at slow speed involves showing how to use the clutch, throttle and the rear brake (the front too but less so). Bicycles operate almost the same whether they are going 2mph or 20.

But bicycles have two issues involving pedal position. The first is fairly obvious, keeping the inside-to-a-turn foot up to prevent the pedal from hitting the pavement. Also an intermediate tip is weighing the outside foot to lower center-of-gravity.

The other issue is not so obvious: toe overlap. A rider's foot could touch a turning front wheel with bikes with tight wheelbases, i.e. road racing. A rider's crankarm would have to be forward, i.e. parallel to the ground, while this behavior only happens when bikes are going very slow. Bicycles at speed that turn the wheel more than, let's say 15 degrees, are going to crash (drifters excepted!)

 

[ST Guy]

I say you don’t counter steer at walking speed. Beyond that, it’s all counter steering that gets the job done.

 

[ST Guy]

Whenever I see a little kid trying to ride a bicycle with training wheels, I tell the parents that they are just making it harder for their child to learn how to ride if they are using training wheels. I explain that a two wheel bike steers oppositely from a three wheel bike and what the parents have done is confusing to the child. The kid gets on the bike and starts pedaling when it’s a three wheel machine. Then, as the child is riding, the bicycle changes from a 3 wheel machine to a 2 wheel machine, completely reversing the required steering inputs. And this reversing of the required steering inputs completely confuses the child. Every time a training wheel touches down, the required inputs at the handle bar are reversed. Training wheels are a bad idea.

What the kid needs is a push bike without pedals. They can quickly learn how to ride/steer a two wheel machine and then, when they’ve learned the basics, you put the pedals back on and they zip away.

 

[Holeshot]

Direct steering is the front tire pointing in the intended direction.

Just "Steering", which is the opposite of counter steering. "Direct" implies steering is something different. When the wheel's pointed in the direction of the corner, it's steering the vehicle (for front steering vehicles).

 

[Frame Maker]

As others have mentioned... I believe somewhere around 3-5mph (walking speed) is where the transition happens.

However, if I were teaching others to ride for the first time, I would not mention counter-steering. This would be giving too much information and put people into a position to start over-thinking what they are doing. It would be more productive to emphasize "look where you want to go". They will figure out the rest out intuitively... as most of us did when we were learning.

That said, I think transition from steering to counter-steering would be a great discussion topic for a physics class.

 

[N4teTheGreat]

I have to wonder if weight of the cycle impacts this, on a light bike you can probably still initiate a turn at slightly higher speeds where a heavier bike would already be fighting you and need counter steering. I did find it interesting when I learned counter steering in the moto safety class I took and started paying attention to how I managed my bicycle at speed.

 

[budman]

On my X - 21" front wheel big ass Harley counter steering started at a higher speed. Probably more like 8-10mph.

Awkward for me for sure.

 

[Enchanter]

Also an intermediate tip is weighing the outside foot to lower center-of-gravity.

Standing on the pegs doesn't lower the center of gravity. Lots of links to be found via Google.

Just "Steering", which is the opposite of counter steering. "Direct" implies steering is something different. When the wheel's pointed in the direction of the corner, it's steering the vehicle (for front steering vehicles).

Disagree. For the purposes of this experiment / discussion we need to understand where and when we are pointing the front tire in relation to the intended change of direction. I think once we establish where and when the tire is pointed, we're going to need to go into what we call it when the rider presses on the handlebars and what the front tire is doing in relation to the intend change of direction.

As others have mentioned... I believe somewhere around 3-5mph (walking speed) is where the transition happens.

This has been my experience as well. I think most riders perception is that it happens at higher speeds because that's were they feel it happening. The forward press on the bar is so light and so small that most riders do not detect it.

I have to wonder if weight of the cycle impacts this, on a light bike you can probably still initiate a turn at slightly higher speeds where a heavier bike would already be fighting you and need counter steering.

On my X - 21" front wheel big ass Harley counter steering started at a higher speed. Probably more like 8-10mph.

There are many factors that influence our ability to accurately perceive when, where, and how long the front tire is pointed in a certain direction. Speed, weight of the front wheel, width of the handlebar, angle of our arms and hands, rake, trail, and more I'm sure. Oh, and lets not forget our own bias.

 

[stangmx13]

Countersteering is any steering angle opposite the tracking angle of the front tire. Front tires on 2 wheel vehicles do interesting things while tracking. So the definition kinda needs to be that generic to apply to all riding situations.

Countersteering a bicycle or even a small moto at low speeds probably won't be noticeable in GoPro footage. You'd need a direct measurement of the steering angle. You'd need to filter out noise that probably has larger magnitudes than the measurement. You'd also need to figure out the tracking angle to remove that as a confounding factor. It's a very difficult task.

The force required to make a stationary bicycle&rider fall over is small. So the force required to cause a lean angle change at 1mph is also small. The magnitude of a countersteer to create that small force is tiny.

 

[PorradaVFR]

Whenever I see a little kid trying to ride a bicycle with training wheels, I tell the parents that they are just making it harder for their child to learn how to ride if they are using training wheels. I explain that a two wheel bike steers oppositely from a three wheel bike and what the parents have done is confusing to the child. The kid gets on the bike and starts pedaling when it’s a three wheel machine. Then, as the child is riding, the bicycle changes from a 3 wheel machine to a 2 wheel machine, completely reversing the required steering inputs. And this reversing of the required steering inputs completely confuses the child. Every time a training wheel touches down, the required inputs at the handle bar are reversed. Training wheels are a bad idea.

What the kid needs is a push bike without pedals. They can quickly learn how to ride/steer a two wheel machine and then, when they’ve learned the basics, you put the pedals back on and they zip away.

100% agree. It was after our boys had learned to ride bikes that we discovered those push bikes - if I had it to do over I would NEVER touch training wheels.

 

[CDONA]

I have been pondering this issue as I scrub out my shower, so much to do, so little motivation.
but, I was thinking about what two wheeled conveyance doesn't react to gyro effect, one of those Razor scooter things you push off like a skateboard, seems awful twitchy at speed. Like no gyro effect? 3 to 4 inch wheels?

Since we have a science project now, Barf/mythbusters, are NOT the Stooges, but highly trained lab tech's, here to serve the Hive, , ,

Back to scrubbin'

 

[Holeshot]

The force required to make a stationary bicycle&rider fall over is small. So the force required to cause a lean angle change at 1mph is also small. The magnitude of a countersteer to create that small force is tiny.

Yeah, aside from trying to compare bicycles to motorcycles, I don't understand the point of the exercise. Because the rider weighs so much more than the bicycle itself, rider weight (placement/ shift) has much more profound affect than actually using the bars to imitate a direction change. A motorcycle is the opposite: the rider weight is significantly less than the motorcycle itself, making the effect of physical counter steering as more profound.

Sanjuro: you may be better in explaining the relationship to braking (speed reduction) and lean angle/ tightening a line. I think most cyclists aren't acutely aware of the relationship between speed and radius nor how to tighten that radius if they need to. This is where your counter steering (and motorcycle type techniques) will come more into play...but you have to add speed. At slow speeds, it's just a balancing act, almost near vertical.

 

[ST Guy]

When riding a bicycle, I find it steers exactly like a motorcycle. The only difference is the amount of force required at the bars.

When I first started riding motorcycles, I found it easy and natural because I instinctively counter steered. I had nothing to learn about steering a motorcycle.

 

[Enchanter]

Yeah, aside from trying to compare bicycles to motorcycles, I don't understand the point of the exercise. Because the rider weighs so much more than the bicycle itself, rider weight (placement/ shift) has much more profound affect than actually using the bars to imitate a direction change. A motorcycle is the opposite: the rider weight is significantly less than the motorcycle itself, making the effect of physical counter steering as more profound.

Over the years I've had quite a few students that refused to believe countersteering works. I was surprised that many of them were avid bicyclists. Two different times students sent me emails months after the class telling me that they were able to improve their bicycle riding by countersteering. One was a road biker, the other downhill mountain biker. One said he no longer ran wide in turns and the other said he was able to ride faster without feeling like he was going to run off the road.

One student was so adamant that it was BS that he showed up to class early with his gazillion dollar road bike to prove to me it did not work. He pedaled across the parking lot and returned saying "See I told you". I got him to ride through a few exercises to slowly isolate his body(lean) from the handlebars. I finally got him to stop leaning his body and just press forward on the bar, and he was beside himself with disbelief. Rode across the parking lot multiple times trying to get it to not work.

 

[Holeshot]

Agree on CS @ speed, but a bicycle doesn't need any bar pushing at slow speed to turn, it needs upright stability. I would also bet that cyclists would benefit as much, if not more, from learning how to use front braking to change the arc of a corner. @ speed. I don't know any competent motorcyclists that aren't using a combination of braking and bar resistance for turning. Most don't know they're using counter steering, but they all know they're using brakes and that's a skill that can be consistently improved.

IMO, once counter steering is accepted, there's not much to really "do" there. Even if a rider doesn't push on the bars, they're at least not resisting the front wheel's movement and that's about all the improvement I can see with any technique, etc.

Braking technique improvements, on the other hand, will give a cyclist a measurable advantage, like a motorcycle.

 

[NorCalBusa]

Didn't Keith Code & Company figure all this out one, maybe two, hundred years ago? They rigged up a bike that had locked steering (straight ahead) and had folks trying to make turns riding it as I recall.