Actor Elliot Page (formerly Ellen Page) comes out as Transgender

[Eldritch]

I personally know a 6 year old biological boy who has his entire life acted in ways that are considered female. This would include choosing to wear dresses and insisting on growing his hair long. Are you saying this biological boy is making a political choice?

Maybe it is an Iggy decision? Does he want to be a dog at all? Perhaps his gender identity is Stooge? What are Stooge pronouns?

 

[TylerW]

I'm not sure that you do, so I'll put it out. Sexual orientation involves whom you choose to have sex with.

Gender identity is like race, it's a political and cultural choice. Perhaps we agree. It's not fixed, it's not a platonic ideal, and it's mutable as fuck. There are no firm categories because there's no science there, it's political.

I want to address part of this again, differently.

For some, gender is mutable. For others its hard-coded into our brains. There are a number of cases of intersex children being born with both male and female sex organs. Their bodies were surgically altered to favor one gender with the sex organs of that gender, and they were socialized as that gender. All of this was done without their knowledge or consent, because they were newborns.

However, many of them experienced significant gender dysphoria in their later lives. Unfortunately a number of these stories ended in suicide.

There's a phenomenal episode of the Science Vs. podcast that discusses the science of what we know, and what we don't about gender and gender identity.

https://gimletmedia.com/shows/science-vs/j4hl23

 

[Mike95060]

Maybe it is an Iggy decision? Does he want to be a dog at all? Perhaps his gender identity is Stooge? What are Stooge pronouns?

No dude. Not at all. He's a sweet kid who as far as I can tell from watching him grow up is just interested in being a kid. His parents have taken a ton of shit from mid west grandparents who think he's being "fagged up" and raised wrong. I'm pretty impressed with his football playing dad for just loving him how he is. So let me know how we are supposed to butt in correctly to label, shame or "correct" his behavior.

 

[afm199]

I personally know a 6 year old biological boy who has his entire life acted in ways that are considered female. This would include choosing to wear dresses and insisting on growing his hair long. Are you saying this biological boy is making a political choice?

Define political.

 

[afm199]

I want to address part of this again, differently.

For some, gender is mutable. For others its hard-coded into our brains. There are a number of cases of intersex children being born with both male and female sex organs. Their bodies were surgically altered to favor one gender with the sex organs of that gender, and they were socialized as that gender. All of this was done without their knowledge or consent, because they were newborns.

However, many of them experienced significant gender dysphoria in their later lives. Unfortunately a number of these stories ended in suicide.

There's a phenomenal episode of the Science Vs. podcast that discusses the science of what we know, and what we don't about gender and gender identity.

https://gimletmedia.com/shows/science-vs/j4hl23

Nice evasion, but please, what genders do you recognize?

 

[Mike95060]

Define political.

I'm asking you to. It was your word choice Ernie. I really don't understand what you meant by it.

 

[afm199]

No dude. Not at all. He's a sweet kid who as far as I can tell from watching him grow up is just interested in being a kid. His parents have taken a ton of shit from mid west grandparents who think he's being "fagged up" and raised wrong. I'm pretty impressed with his football playing dad for just loving him how he is. So let me know how we are supposed to butt in correctly to label, shame or "correct" his behavior.

Who said anything about butting in to correct? I know a macho motorcycle guy whose 14 year old is trans and identifies as male. I'm totally supportive of him and his kid. I admire him for supporting the kids aspirations to race.

 

[Mike95060]

Who said anything about butting in to correct? I know a macho motorcycle guy whose 14 year old is trans and identifies as male. I'm totally supportive of him and his kid. I admire him for supporting the kids aspirations to race.

I have never thought of you as a bigot or particularly intolerant. It's why I'm digging into this "political choice" assertion you made. I don't think it fits.

 

[afm199]

I'm asking you to. It was your word choice Ernie. I really don't understand what you meant by it.

Political decisions, in the end, involve identifying with a group that gives support to your feelings,aspirations, and drives. Cultural decisions involve learned behavior. We are all an interesting mix. Why do you think that I am upset by or opposed to any personal decisions?

Back in the eighties I knew gay kids in SF who chose to live with older gay men in a group setting. In some ways, the setting horrified me, as it involved sexual favors for housing and support. In some ways I supported them, as the older men provided them a safer place than living in families that rejected and beat them, and on the street where they were pawns in a violent game. We don't live in a pretty world, do we?

 

[Mike95060]

Political decisions, in the end, involve identifying with a group that gives support to your feelings,aspirations, and drives. Cultural decisions involve learned behavior. We are all an interesting mix. Why do you think that I am upset by or opposed to any personal decisions?

I'm not on board that gender identity or sexuality is 100% a conscious choice. To say it is means that a person is open to criticism and judgment, not necessarily by you personally.

I can't explain why I have fallen in love with the individuals I have. It never felt like a "choice." Likewise neither did being a straight male. That has always seemed inherent to who I am. I think it right to extend that to those who are not like me no?

 

[afm199]

I'm not on board that gender identity or sexuality is 100% a conscious choice. To say it is means that a person is open to criticism and judgment, not necessarily by you personally.

I can't explain why I have fallen in love with the individuals I have. It never felt like a "choice." Likewise neither did being a straight male. That has always seemed inherent to who I am. I think it right to extend that to those who are not like me no?

I never believed it was or is. Both personal choice and environment determine our identities and none of us are identical. My sparring with Tyler involves something else entirely. He's got an agenda that I am leery of, and I don't think he's going to answer my question about what genders he recognizes.

 

[Mike95060]

I never believed it was or is. Both personal choice and environment determine our identities and none of us are identical. My sparring with Tyler involves something else entirely. He's got an agenda that I am leery of, and I don't think he's going to answer my question about what genders he recognizes.

I will admit im joining the discussion late so I beg your pardon for that. I'm not picking sides with you or tyler but I have to ask, Why does it matter how many genders there are? What makes the number consequential?

If our values are universal and apply to everyone, as I think they should in a fair society, what is the significance of a person's gender? What are we awarding to one group that we are keeping from another?

 

[TylerW]

I never believed it was or is. Both personal choice and environment determine our identities and none of us are identical. My sparring with Tyler involves something else entirely. He's got an agenda that I am leery of, and I don't think he's going to answer my question about what genders he recognizes.

I did. You just didn't like the answer.

to explain what genders I recognize can't really go into any kind of list. I identify gender as a spectrum; a spectrum that supports both cis- and trans- gender identities, as well as non-binary, bigender, genderqueer and agender representations.

I struggle with some of the nontraditional pronouns like ze/zir and the like, but I think that's because I've only read about them. I've never met anyone who uses those pronouns and heard the story about why that represents their identity.

 

[Mike95060]

+1 on viewing gender as a spectrum. I think we are all a varying mix of traits and that's a good thing.

 

[afm199]

I will admit im joining the discussion late so I beg your pardon for that. I'm not picking sides with you or tyler but I have to ask, Why does it matter how many genders there are? What makes the number consequential?

If our values are universal and apply to everyone, as I think they should in a fair society, what is the significance of a person's gender? What are we awarding to one group that we are keeping from another?

Gender choice is remarkably unimportant and quite arbitrary, and I place no value in it. Tyler does, however, and is insistent on granting privilege and rights to people based on gender.

 

[afm199]

I did. You just didn't like the answer.

to explain what genders I recognize can't really go into any kind of list. I identify gender as a spectrum; a spectrum that supports both cis- and trans- gender identities, as well as non-binary, bigender, genderqueer and agender representations.

I struggle with some of the nontraditional pronouns like ze/zir and the like, but I think that's because I've only read about them. I've never met anyone who uses those pronouns and heard the story about why that represents their identity.

No, you didn't. You think you did. Quoting a link or someone else's interpretation is not an answer, it's an evasion.

 

[Mike95060]

Tyler does, however, and is insistent on granting privilege and rights to people based on gender.

Well, do we agree that such enlightened views on the significance gender are a new thing and unfortunately not so universally accepted? It's been what a scant 100 years that biological women have had the right to vote? Is it impossible to believe that some work still needs to be done to achieve a more fair society? If we do believe that then doesn't it follow that there are right and proper reasons to grant rights to people who haven't yet had them? I mean, these seem like reasonable things to discuss to me.

 

[afm199]

Well, do we agree that such enlightened views on the significance gender are a new thing and unfortunately not so universally accepted? It's been what a scant 100 years that biological women have had the right to vote? Is it impossible to believe that some work still needs to be done to achieve a more fair society? If we do believe that then doesn't it follow that there are right and proper reasons to grant rights to people who haven't yet had them? I mean, these seem like reasonable things to discuss to me.

That's why I want Tyler to list the genders, so that we can establish laws that give each gender the appropriate number of jobs and benefits. If one is particularly discriminated against, the can get extra jobs and benefits, and to boot, a whole bunch of college grads can get jobs at government agencies that will administer and categorize! Win win.

 

[TylerW]

That's why I want Tyler to list the genders, so that we can establish laws that give each gender the appropriate number of jobs and benefits. If one is particularly discriminated against, the can get extra jobs and benefits, and to boot, a whole bunch of college grads can get jobs at government agencies that will administer and categorize! Win win.

Dude, what the fuck.

 

[Melissa]

you guys are enjoyable to read on this solstice.