Any BARF Audiophiles?

[DReg350]

Some Harbeths have gotten pretty expensive. I think those are ~$14K.

Me neither but would like to hear them some day.

Got wind of the California Audio Show in Oakland in July - www.caaudioshow.com. I haven't been to one since several years ago in SF and may check it out. Currently $10 for 3-day pass. Not the best place for serious auditioning but you get to see a lot. Harbeths will probably there.

Oh, dude! The show is back this year?! I think the last one was back in 14 or 15. I'm definitely going this year. Thanks for the heads up!

The Analog Room is an authorized Harbeth dealer. Also ProAc and more. Brian, the owner and his son, Will, and son in law, Zack, are really cool guys: straight with info, direct, friendly, but certainly play in a deeper pond that me. They're always so gracious when I visit. Treat yourself and stop in. Your ears will thank you! Oh, and they have a good vinyl collection for sale.

 

[TerryM]

...The Analog Room...Treat yourself and stop in. Your ears will thank you! Oh, and they have a good vinyl collection for sale.

Thanks, I'll check them out next time I'm close. Like how they state right up front they're a two channel stereo store. For my purposes, too many switched emphasis to HT. I know that's where the money was/is and they had to roll to survive, just not my interest.

 

[russ69]

If you have not been to an audio show or haven't been in a long time, it's a great way to burn up a day. You will see more equipment than you will all year just going around to shops. I hit the Newport show a couple of years ago, had a great time and a nice lunch with my audiophile buddy.

 

[johnkol]

The Sumiko didn't seem quite as full sounding as the Ortofon.

The Sumiko has had bipolar reviews ever since it was introduced: some people (me included) thought it was a great cartridge, some others criticised it as thin-sounding, with little to no body, verging on the grating. Over time a consensus emerged that the difference between these opinions came down to the phono amp used: tubed ones almost never mated well with the Sumiko, but some solid-state ones also had problems.

It would be interesting to see how these two cartridges sound through the Meitner pre.

Beware of liquid needle cleaners; a number of cartridge manufacturers advise against them because the liquid tends to migrate to the coils and gum them up.

BTW, if you were able to hear a sound difference after cleaning the needle, then your ears are far more sensitive than mine -- which does not bode well for your wallet!

The Analog Room is an authorized Harbeth dealer.

Agree, the Analog Room is an excellent shop with great people.

 

[DReg350]

The Sumiko has had bipolar reviews ever since it was introduced: some people (me included) thought it was a great cartridge, some others criticised it as thin-sounding, with little to no body, verging on the grating. Over time a consensus emerged that the difference between these opinions came down to the phono amp used: tubed ones almost never mated well with the Sumiko, but some solid-state ones also had problems.

It would be interesting to see how these two cartridges sound through the Meitner pre.

I finally got the Meitner PA-61 wired in as a phono preamp yesterday. I tried it with the only the Sumiko so far. I went back and forth between the Meitner and my Budgie. With the Sumiko cartridge... the Meitner clearly walks all over my Budgie. Much MUCH fuller sound, better fuller bass and stronger mids. The highs were there with both preamps. The Meitner scared me for a minute. didn't have much volume coming from the right channel till I realized the Meitner has a balance knob. Problem solved.

Beware of liquid needle cleaners; a number of cartridge manufacturers advise against them because the liquid tends to migrate to the coils and gum them up.

You are absolutely correct. The Analog Room guys warned me about that, but went even further. They warned me to not only let the needle dry out for several minutes following a liquid stylus cleaning, but they also said the same about using liquid record cleaners as well. Apparently more cartridges are ruined by liquid cleaners than anything else. Let your stylus and records dry thoroughly before dropping your stylus in a groove. Keeps the liquid from gumming up your cartridge internals.

BTW, if you were able to hear a sound difference after cleaning the needle, then your ears are far more sensitive than mine -- which does not bode well for your wallet!

Don't say that! So, I read up, grabbed some tools and re-biased my amp last night. I was a little freaked about doing it, so read and re-read the instruction 3 or 4 times, flipping the amp upside down, did a dry run, then went through the procedure for real. Supper simple. Took more time to stress about it, read the instructions, un-hook and re-hook everything back up than it took to make the four adjustments.

Jolida recommends a bias setting of between .036 to .044mv. After reading other owner's input I settled on .040mv. It did change things. I intend on doing more testing at both the upper and lower limits. People say lower reveals more detail, will upper provides more warmth, a lush fuller sound. I read some comments about going just above the upper limits ( say .045mv) and drive the power tubes at full power 100% of the time, essentially turning it in to a class A amp, in order to eliminate switching distortion. Downside is this causes early power tube failure. I'm not going to try this. Sounds like sprockets.

Agree, the Analog Room is an excellent shop with great people.

 

[CoorsLight]

You guys know where to pick up some Owens Corning 703 rockwool sound insulation in the BA? Or where to get it online with cheap shipping? I've only found it for $65 online, but the shipping is $40+ which really seems outrageous.

Also, where to get covers for the rockwool?

 

[tzrider]

You guys know where to pick up some Owens Corning 703 rockwool sound insulation in the BA? Or where to get it online with cheap shipping? I've only found it for $65 online, but the shipping is $40+ which really seems outrageous.

Also, where to get covers for the rockwool?

I'm not sure where to get it locally, but about 30 years ago I used the stuff while building a recording studio in the BA. We build large wooden frames around sections of it and stretched acoustically transparent cloth over the frames. The result was clean looking and effective for damping reflections. It will do little to reduce sound transmission through the wall.

 

[DReg350]

You guys know where to pick up some Owens Corning 703 rockwool sound insulation in the BA? Or where to get it online with cheap shipping? I've only found it for $65 online, but the shipping is $40+ which really seems outrageous.

Also, where to get covers for the rockwool?

I fired off a few emails to the Bay Area guys I know. I'll let you know what I find out if they know anything.

... People say lower reveals more detail, while upper provides more warmth, a lush fuller sound. I read some comments about going just above the upper limits ( say .045mv) and drive the power tubes at full power 100% blah blah blah...

I know. Bad form to quote one's self, but when I catch myself spewing internet bullshit and find out... well... that bold part was bassackwards. More voltage created more detail and less voltage warmed the music up. Tried it at .050mv and .036mv. Ended up going right back to the middle - .040mv. Sounds best to me there.

 

[johnkol]

With the Sumiko cartridge... the Meitner clearly walks all over my Budgie. Much MUCH fuller sound, better fuller bass and stronger mids. The highs were there with both preamps.

Makes sense, but it's always good to confirm; the Meitner is one of the best designs that I have seen. Funny thing is that I never tried its phono stage because by the time I got it I had been using a low output MC cartridge.

Ended up going right back to the middle - .040mv. Sounds best to me there.

Wise decision; when I had experimented with biasing voltages, I set it too close to the threshold, and next time I turned on the amp one of the EL34s went out with a bang.

BTW, I never heard any differences from biasing voltages, so more proof that your hearing is better than mine.

 

[johnkol]

You guys know where to pick up some Owens Corning 703 rockwool sound insulation in the BA?

Are you trying to build something, or just hang them on the wall at the first reflection points?

If the latter, don't bother, I tried that and it made virtually no difference (and I have the data to support that).

If you're trying to build something, then how far up the geek factor are you willing to go? For instance, an acoustic absorber like this is extremely effective:

This panel is 4' wide, 6' tall, and 10" thick. The back is made of OC 703 1"-thick bats, and the inside is filled with regular fiberglass insulation; the external cover is burlap, which can be found at fabric and craft stores.

 

[CoorsLight]

I'm not sure where to get it locally, but about 30 years ago I used the stuff while building a recording studio in the BA. We build large wooden frames around sections of it and stretched acoustically transparent cloth over the frames. The result was clean looking and effective for damping reflections. It will do little to reduce sound transmission through the wall.

I'm trying to do something similar, but hoping not to have to use too much of the stuff. My understanding is that there are textile covers to put over the rockwool panels that you can just hang on the wall. Seems like an easy fix.

Acoustic panels seem crazy expensive to me.

I fired off a few emails to the Bay Area guys I know. I'll let you know what I find out if they know anything.

Thanks!

Are you trying to build something, or just hang them on the wall at the first reflection points?

If the latter, don't bother, I tried that and it made virtually no difference (and I have the data to support that).

If you're trying to build something, then how far up the geek factor are you willing to go? For instance, an acoustic absorber like this is extremely effective:

This panel is 4' wide, 6' tall, and 10" thick. The back is made of OC 703 1"-thick bats, and the inside is filled with regular fiberglass insulation; the external cover is burlap, which can be found at fabric and craft stores.

I'm trying to stop reflections. Recording vocals and acoustic guitar in a room that sounds very dead. But the mic is picking up all types of reverb, which makes the vocal tracks basically unusable.

I don't want to geek out a solution too much. I don't have the time. Looking for a quick fix.

I was speaking to a musician/audiophile earlier this week about it and he strongly recommended the rockwool panels. He seemed very knowledgeable, but I'm also becoming aware that the audiophile world seems about like the chart below.

 

[tzrider]

I was speaking to a musician/audiophile earlier this week about it and he strongly recommended the rockwool panels.

In our application it did absolutely kill flutter echo. We covered all walls with the stuff. In addition, we installed vertical wooden strips over the cloth for appearance. We ensured that the strips on opposite sides of the room were staggered from each other so that one parallel hard surface was always aligned with an absorbent surface on the other side of the room.

The room recorded very well. It wasn't anechoic, but the flutter echo was gone.

 

[TerryM]

Your pie chart may be optimistic in the "Enjoyment..." wedge.

How are you getting echo/reverb if the room sounds dead? Maybe you need diffusion instead of absorption. Echo Busters pop up on CL, Audiogon and US Audio Mart occasionally. Some can be rotated to absorb, diffuse or a combination. (Yeah, they're overpriced)

 

[tzrider]

How are you getting echo/reverb if the room sounds dead?

I had interpreted his remark to mean that he was seeing to make the room sound dead. I can see how it read differently though.

 

[CoorsLight]

The room really sounded dead to me. I've recorded in much more echoey rooms, but I've never had such a problem with reverb. I don't even notice it playing or recording guitar, but vocals are just shit. I can't explain it. Partially because I have zero understanding of how it works.

 

[tzrider]

The room really sounded dead to me. I've recorded in much more echoey rooms, but I've never had such a problem with reverb. I don't even notice it playing or recording guitar, but vocals are just shit. I can't explain it. Partially because I have zero understanding of how it works.

Does the room have hard floors and ceiling?

 

[CoorsLight]

Does the room have hard floors and ceiling?

Carpet and heavy drapes. Hard ceiling and drywall.

I've seen some improvement by moving the mic into the middle of the room, but I'm still getting reverb that sounds like I'm recording in a bathroom with a tile shower.

 

[tzrider]

Carpet and heavy drapes. Hard ceiling and drywall.

I've seen some improvement by moving the mic into the middle of the room, but I'm still getting reverb that sounds like I'm recording in a bathroom with a tile shower.

The reverberation is going to mostly come from parallel hard surfaces. If you can damp one of them, the reverb should stop. Sounds like floor to ceiling is handled. Look for portions of hard wall or door surfaces that face each other.

 

[CoorsLight]

The reverberation is going to mostly come from parallel hard surfaces. If you can damp one of them, the reverb should stop. Sounds like floor to ceiling is handled. Look for portions of hard wall or door surfaces that face each other.

The room is pretty much square, so I'll have two walls to think about. Thanks very much for the helpful advice

 

[TerryM]

Hang or drape a quilt or blanket on a bare wall that faces another bare wall and see if it affects the echo. Also, starting at one wall, walk slowly toward the opposite wall while repeating "hello" (or anything) and listen for where the sound changes. You can find room modes where echo or base are pronounced that way. Set up mike where it's minimum. If your room is close to square (or cube), it will be hard to eliminate effects. Rectangular is better, and non-parallel walls even better.

edit: Just saw your above post. Can you move to a non-square room?